ohtani's jacket

It depends on the wrestling, or in some cases my mood or how tired I am. I think what people are trying to describe is that feeling you get when you're so engrossed in a match that you start pulling for a guy to win even though you may know the result or have seen the match before. It's hard to describe what causes that feeling, but I think that's where the divide between suspension of disbelief is coming.

This is because you've suspended your disbelief. A willingness to suspend disbelief doesn't mean that you stop believing you're reading a comic book.

It means when I read Tomb of Dracula, I don't get hung up on the fact that vampires aren't real. I enjoy Tomb of Dracula for the artwork and the story not because it makes me believe that vampires are real. If you don't care that wrestling's a work then you've already suspended your disbelief.

The confusion lies in people not understanding what suspension of disbelief means. Suspension of disbelief is an involuntary response that allows you to enjoy a cartoon where a duck is talking to a rabbit. It doesn't mean that you believe the duck is really talking to the rabbit or that you have to believe the duck is talking to the rabbit to enjoy it.

Perhaps you should be lambasted Parv for not knowing that a New Zealander was the first to split the atom or climb Mt. Everest.

I don't recall knowing any of this stuff when I came out of high school. I think schools do a bad job of macro overview. They seem wedded to modular "bitty" teaching so all the bits don't join up and any bits left out and simply that: left out. What country did you go to school in OJ? I can never work out where exactly you are from. I wouldn't expect kids from anywhere other than Britain to know the Restoration or kids from outside of Europe to know the Romantics. I went to school in New Zealand. I'm a Kiwi, but I've lived in Japan for the past eight years.

I don't recall knowing any of this stuff when I came out of high school.

It sounds like you're frustrated that they're not familiar with your DVD collection. It also seems like you're not making a distinction between the hobbyist and the average person. We were having a discussion about movies in my office the other day between a younger guy in his mid-20s who had only started taking movies seriously recently (a fairly common phenomenon that I think you're discounting), a guy who's the same age as me (34) who has fairly established tastes in film, and me who only watches older films. To say I was not on their wavelength is putting it mildly. I can't remember the last time I watched a new film at the cinema and I don't even own a TV. I have only the vaguest sense of what's going on in modern pop culture. At the moment I'm reading comics from the 70s. I'm out of touch with modern pop culture, but surely if you put together a montage of things that were culturally important from the last five years or so it would resonate more with these kids.

I still don't see why undergraduates should be familiar with Dirty Harry or Death Wish.

Raul Reyes Jr. & Climax vs. Mocho Cota & Loco Zavala (Sonora 1985) (Youtube) A lot of wrestlers when they weren't working the Federal District would work for smaller independent promotions around the country and in some cases promote the shows. Cota was from the Sonora region and had gotten his start there. I don't know how often Cota worked Sonora during his gravy years, but he continued to work there and train young wrestlers after his run with the big promotions was over. There's not much info about the other three workers. I suspect Raul Reyes "Jr." is actually Raul Reyes the maestro who helped train Fuerza Guerrera, Negro Casas, Felino, Heavy Metal, L.A. Park and Octagon, among others. In any event, this is a good example of the type of independent wrestling that was happening outside of the major territories like Monterrey, Tijuana and Mexico City. Atlantis vs. El Faraon (3/22/85) This match saw Atlantis defend his Mexican National Middleweight title against El Faraon. Faraon was still a rudo at this point and Atlantis was still being pushed as a new young superstar. He'd just come off his first luchas de apuestas victory at the '84 Anniversary show, and successfully defending his title here against a wrestler as established as Faraon was another big coup for the youngster, similar to El Satanico's victory over Faraon in 1980. Atlantis' initial push would last through to the end of '86 where he lost the middleweight title to El Talisman but took Hombre Bala's mask to compensate. A cooling off period followed before his career entered its second phase in 1988. La Fiera, El Faraón y El Egipico vs. MS-1, Satanico y Pirata Morgan (3/29/85) In 1985, Pirata Morgan joined MS-1 and Satanico to form the most famous version of Los Infernales, though they are more renowned for their second run as a team than this first wave of terror. A common story on the internet is that Morgan replaced Espectro Jr when injuries ended his career, but Espectro continued to wrestle throughout the 80s and into the 90s. According to an interview with Morgan, he filled in for Espectro when the latter had an illness. Yet again this is rudos contra rudos, and led to a hair match between Morgan and El Egipico the following week.

Devil Masami vs. Despina Mantagas, 7/84 Devil Masami vs. Tarzan Goto's woman. The Devil is not afraid to squash another wrestler's woman. Devil Masami vs. Jaguar Yokota, '82 This should have been the marquee match-up of the era, but despite some cool shit it's disappointing seeing them go through the same routine as every other match. Jumping Bomb Angels vs. Devil Masami/Lioness Asuka, 2/15/86 Devil Masami and Asuka were a pretty unfuckable-with team. The JBAs were coming into their own here as the No.2 idol team, but this wasn't given enough time to be as special as it could have been. Devil Masami vs. Jackie Sato, 1980 Not as epic as you'd hope irregardless of the clipping, but a cool match-up nonetheless. Devil's mother was in the crowd and was a pretty good looking woman. Judy Martin vs. Mimi Hagiwara, 1982 Rinse and repeat. Devil Masami vs. Jackie Sato, 1981 Shorter version of their '80 match. Some good stuff, but the same stalemate as every other match from this era.

Gravesend is my favourite venue for old-school British wrestling. My least favourite venue is anywhere where the crowd heckle the wrestlers. I like the old-school MSG crowd the most of any wrestling crowds.

Sangre Chicana vs. Villano III (12/7/84) I don't think the date on this is correct. According to my research, the 12/7/84 Arena Mexico show was headlined by the Gran Coloso vs. Mascara 2000 mask vs. mask match and a Gran Cochisse vs. Mocho Cota hair match. The undercard featured Solar II y Las Estrellas Blancas vs. Panico, Lemus II y Franco Colombo, MS1,Herodes y Espectro Jr vs. Amercio Rocca,Tony Salazar y Cachorro Mendoza, a El Hijo del Santo, Hombre Bala y Javier Cruz vs. Fuerza Guerrera, Talisman y El Supremo match where Santo pulled off Fuerza's mask. and a Villano III y Cien Caras vs. Perro Aguayo y El Faraon tag match that was allegedly so violent and bloody that all four were banned from Arena Mexico for three months, and ended with Aguayo and Faraon coming to blows. There was a Chicana vs. Villano III mano a mano bout at El Toreo on 10/7/84. with Cien Caras, Fishman y Coloso Colosetti vs. Misioneros, El Hijo del Santo y Los Fantasicos vs. Negro Casas y Los Temerarios atomicos, and Blue Panther y Ray Richard vs. Falcon y Halcon 78 on the undercard. Since rematches between El Toreo and Arena Mexico usually took place in short succession, my guess is this bout is from either October or November of '84.

Naito vs. Ishii was okay. If you're going to base the start of the match around strike exchanges, you should probably make them look like they're connecting or not do them at all, but weak strikes are prevalent throughout New Japan. At least the headbutts at the end looked ok. I didn't have much of a problem with the layout except for the fact that every New Japan match has the same sort of arc. Maybe it sounds odd, but surely not every match can go the distance like that? You don't see epic games every time out in sports. It would be better if they saved the big match structure for the big matches.

The trouble is a lot of what people call story in matches is what I'd call either the story element of characterisation or the "plot", so to speak. To me working the arm to neutralise the other guy's finisher, or whatever, isn't a story. The emotion and drama that Loss felt while watching that GAEA match, there's a story in there, but that type of match is rare in my experience. The stakes have to be high, but stakes can't be high all the time and so wrestling is mostly just wrestling. I think that's why I've gravitated towards technique over the years. I like brawls, maybe not as much as some people, but guys who can wrestle are tops in my book. I wouldn't rate Sangre Chicana or Negro Casas as high as some people as I don't think they're that good on the mat, and I'd rather watch pure shoot style with no UWF-i bullshit than any other form of Japanese wrestling.

A lightning match is a one fall bout with a ten minute time limit. In Spanish, they call it a match relampago. It's not an insider term.

I have a few problems with this. Wrestling definitely has a lot in common with improv, particularly when wrestlers call the action in the ring. But they also lay things out before hand, which improv does not have save for the start. You can call it a performance aren't and I don't think that's an incorrect way to look at it, I just prefer to avoid the term because of pretensions attached to it. Your post would make more sense if wrestling were just a series of singular matches with no context across shows, feuds, and so on. That isn't how it goes. Two wrestlers might have little deeper meaning to their match and might wing it out there to fill time. More often, they have a goal in mind. To get someone over. To make someone look dangerous. To tell whatever story it is they want to tell. That can be in one match or across multiple matches with each building on the last. The stories don't start and end the second a bell rings. The promos and vignettes tie in or at least should tie in. Poorly booked wrestling might have no lasting consequences, but that's true of any poorly made story. You don't have to use the WWE forced-epicness or the Chikara story arc style of depth to make wrestling mean more than two guys in a ring fighting each other. As for the last part, are you saying that someone who is a technical wrestler automatically rates higher than someone who is not, even if that person is a great brawler? I think most wrestling is wrestling for the sake of wrestling. There's nothing particularly episodic about the World of Sport, lucha or 80s Joshi I've been watching lately even when there are feuds. I get what you're saying about the set-up and pay-off between angles, promos and matches, but for the most part I think that's an ideal which is rarely achieved. The vast majority of wrestling is filmed houseshows. I agree that calling it improv isn't completely analogous, but I still think the greater skill in wrestling is selling/acting than storytelling since most wrestlers go through the same routines when it comes to match build. Yes, a mat worker will always rate higher for me than a brawler. I think the actual skill of wrestling is both admirable and important.

Gran Cochise, Villano III y Rayo De Jalisco Jr. vs. Fishman, Mocho Cota y Tony Bennetto (11/30/84) This marks the first appearance on the set of one of the biggest stars of the 80s, Fishman, which gives you an idea of how sketchy footage is. Fishman began training as a wrestler in Cicudad Juarez when he was 17 years old alongside El Marquez, El Cobarde I, and Cobrade's brother El Impostor, who later became El Cobrade II. Like most wrestlers from his generation, he claims to have been inspired by the iconic stars of yesteryear, in Fishman’s case Blue Demon and Black Shadow. His debut story, whether kayfabed or real, is a classic wrestling yarn about showing up to a card where one of the wrestlers had no-showed and being asked to wrestle despite only having a pair of underpants and some old boots lent to him by another wrestler. In the middle of 1972, he got a gig in Monterrey and by November he had worked his way up to Mexico City, where he got over despite working the more violent Monterrey style. Having established himself at Arena Mexico, he changed the design of his mask under the initiative of Lutteroth Sr. and began wearing the classic green mask with the yellow manta ray design. Despite the fact he was a rudo, he was pushed as one of the top welterweights in the country, initially supplanting Karloff Lagarde as the dominant Mexican National Welterweight Champion and then feuding extensively with his idol Blue Demon over both the national and world titles. He also had three important mask matches in the late 70s against El Faraon in '76, Sangre Chicana (in a triangle match with El Cobrade) at the '77 Anniversary show, and a week later against El Cobrade, his real life best friend. These mask matches not only launched the careers of El Faraon and Sangre Chicana, they pushed Fishman to further stardom, In spite of this, he walked out on EMLL and joined UWA in the second wave of defections. In the UWA, he was pushed as the their top light heavyweight through much of the early 80s, feuding with the likes of Perro Aguayo, Sangre Chicana, Villano III and Anibal, often in rudo vs. rudo feuds. At the time of this match, he was still the UWA World Light Heavyweight Champion having defeated Villano III for the vacant title on 4/1/84. As the 80s wore on, however, his star began to wane. The death of two of his closest friends in the business, El Cobrade and El Solitario, greatly affected him, the latter especially as Fishman was Solitario's final opponent and the magazines at the time initially blamed him for Solitario's death. Fishman continued to work for UWA until the early 90s when the majority of LLI’s talent left for either CMLL or AAA. Fishman made the jump to AAA, but the worker who made TV after many long years, despite still being a fine brawler in my opinion, didn’t match the legendary status of his name, leading many to question whether he ever any good. Those who saw him in Cicudad Juarez swear he was one of the all-time greats. The 1977 Anniversary show three-way mask match exists on tape, but it’s unlikely that we’ll ever get to see it. From the fragments that exist of his pre-AAA career, he looks like a fantastic rudo brawler. Also making his debut on the set is Rayo de Jalisco Jr. Rayo’s father, Rayo de Jalisco Sr., was a big star in the 60s and an absolute legend in the Jalisco region. Rayo Sr. didn’t want his son to become a wrestler, so initially Rayo Jr. kept his training a secret from his father. He was trained in Guadalajara under Diablo Velazco, making his debut as a 15 year-old as “Rayman.” It was Rayo’s uncle, Tony Sugar, who convinced Rayo Sr. to watch his boy wrestle and bestow the Rayo de Jalisco character upon him complete with the famous lightening bolt mask. Rayo Sr. then took his boy under his wing until he was ready to work in the Federal District. Rayo Jr.’s most famous feud in EMLL was his long running rivalry with Cien Caras, which came to a head on 9/14/90 in a mask vs. mask match that drew the biggest crowd in EMLL history. In fact, they crammed so many people into Arena Mexico that the upper deck suffered structural damage from the weight of so many extra fans. For many it was the Match of the Century and certainly the most anticipated lucha match since the 1953 Santo/Black Shadow mask match. In 1984, however, Rayo was still finding his way and had won and lost the Mexican National Heavyweight Championship in short order. Another wrestler new to the set is Tony Benetto. Benetto is better known as Gran Markus Jr., a gimmick he took on when the original Gran Markus was looking for a successor, but originally he had an Italian Mafioso gimmick. Like Rayo Jr., Benetto was a heavyweight and up until this point his biggest push had been a strong rivalry with Halcon Ortiz that included two hair matches and a heavyweight title change. This trios was part of the build to a Gran Cochisse/Mocho Cota hair match on the 12/7/84 Arena Mexico show.

I like storytelling in wrestling as much as the next guy, but I think people go overboard with it. A real story gets rewritten a dozen times until it's any good. Wrestling is closer to improv than writing, and while it borrows story elements, the art of selling has more to do with acting than storytelling. I look at it as performance art rather than a storytelling medium. There's a narrative to most matches because they build from a beginning to an end, but they don't have the depth of a comic book and there's almost no lasting consequences or irreversible change. Ironically enough, when companies try to add depth like WWE it's often labelled as contrived or self-conscious. It's a medium that works best off the cuff unlike true storytelling which requires an inordinate amount of thought. Another thing, it really does help if you're technically good. I like Lawler, though the Lawler I watch is dependent on his opponent rather than wanting to watch Lawler vs. anybody, but I could never rate him over guys who can work the mat. That's not fathomable.

I don't exactly shout it from the rooftops, but everyone at work knows about it. I haven't really gotten any shit for it, though.

I think the answer is fluid. What I think is good wrestling now is not what I thought was good wrestling 10 or 15 years ago. It's not just that my tastes have changed, but my attitudes as well. I honesty think mood plays a huge part in perception. I don't really believe in any fixed tenants since in my current mood I'm likely to reject them. I find the vast majority of wrestling boring. Good wrestling is whatever jumps out at you.

Javier Cruz vs. El Dandy (Hair vs. Hair) (10/26/84) So far we've seen a lot of headliners crossing promotions and continuing feuds in different territories. What makes this match special is that it features two guys who came up through the EMLL system. Both wrestlers trained in Guadalajara under Diablo Velazco and Pedro Anguiano and made their debuts in the Jalisco territory before being called up to Mexico City. Despite the fact that the LLI/UWA was outdrawing EMLL rather heavily, there was a lot of optimism in the EMLL office that it was their feeder territories that would produce the next generation of stars. In particular, Paco had high hopes for El Dandy, La Fiera and Jerry Estrada. As we know, only one of those workers lived up to his potential and the other two flaked out due to drugs, but in the 1984 landscape those were the bright young hopes. Cruz wasn't as charismatic as those workers I mentioned and subsequently never received their level of push, but he held on to a solid spot through most of the 80s up until the TV boom where he struggled to make an impact. A technico for much of the 80s, they turned him rudo in the early 90s, but he didn't have the panache to pull it off. His push for the most productive part of his career centered around a "El Tijeras de Oro" (Golden Scissors) gimmick, which is where you win a lot of hair matches and gain the rep of being hard to beat in a hair match. He also enjoyed a trios run with "Los Xavieres," a group made up of Cruz, Chamaco Valaguez, Americo Rocca, and sometimes Javier Llanes, all of whom shared the first name of Xavier/Javier. Cruz was also an early rival of El Dandy. The pair had a lengthy feud over the NWA World Welterweight Championship that began when Valaguez vacated the title in '85 and continued through 1986. A week after reclaiming the world's title from Cruz, the pair met in a second hair vs. hair match that I believe is the match Dr. Alfonso Morales always refers to as one of the all-time memorable bloodbaths. A few years later, Cruz got a measure of revenge over Dandy by taking the Mexican National Middleweight title from him before the belt was given to Octagon, which heralded a new style of booking.

When I check the board on my iphone, I automatically get the mobile version of the IP. Board skin. If I want to use the legacy skin I have to change it manually every time. Is there any way around this? Also, I'm typing this on the "full version" of the board on my iPhone and the reply box is really small.

Mimi Hagiwara vs. Mami Kumano, 1981 This should have been the easiest match in the world to work as you had the Queen Bitch against the prettiest girl in the company yet somehow it was dull and uninspiring. Mami Kumano vs. Tomi Aoyama, 1980 This was from somewhere famous for apples, maybe Nagano or Aomori. Kumano hit Aoyama over the head with an apple and later on there was a payback spot. Not quite on the level of your Tupelo concession stand brawl, but a bit of citrus violence. Aoyama was such a mini-Jackie. They were gearing up to have her replace Sato in the long term, but injuries ended her career. This was by the numbers, but there were some cool spots. Mami Kumano vs. Lucy Kayama, 1980 This was a real knock-down, drag-out fight. It looked to be from Okinawa and both girls worked hard in the heat with the sweat just pouring off them. It was a real stalemate, but they scrapped with everything they had. It was the same kind of brawling seen over and over in this era, but you had to admire the effort. Sherri Martel vs. Devil Masami, 1983 This was fun just seeing Scary Sherri take on Devil Masami. Of course, they treated her like she was nothing, just a bit of roadkill for Masami, but it was cool seeing her bump and scrap. Mimi Hagiwara vs. Devil Masami, 1983 Classic match-up with Masami working over Mimi's arm and brutalising her as usual. I've been thinking lately about whether I like Mimi's punches and I've decided I'm cool with them. I can kayfabe accept those punches, girl. Devil did her usual schtick, and it was amusing seeing Dump run around as her junior. People love to gossip about there being heat between those two. Devil was of course the better worker, but I think Dump did more with the whole never-ending Black Gundam concept. Match had a shitty countount finish. The Matsunagas may deserve to be in the WON HOF for promoting, but their booking was second rate and their television was just awful.

What's with the line spacing issue?