ohtani's jacket

Me and others like me. If you've never seen wrestling before and you don't know who any of the wrestlers are, what the storylines or angles are, or even the internal logic behind the whole thing, you tend to pay attention to the commentators. Vince and Jesse were extremely good at this, because like all good wrestling commentary they were the moral compass of what was going on. When you go back and watch that era, the matches aren't good but the commentating of Jesse and Vince holds up. Later on, when Vince went through his whole "whatta maneuver/Shawn Michaels" phase, do you really think Lawler was as good a foil as Jesse? Early Monday Night Raw with Vince, Macho Man and Bartlett was atrocious and even when they brought in Bobby it wasn't much better. I can't think of anyone who was a better fit with Vince than Jesse. What's more, there was so much terrible commentating in the the WWF in the 80s and 90s before and after Jesse that I can't understand why anyone would think there was anyone better. Well, he's not as inextricably linked with wrestlers as Russell with Lawler or Ross with Flair and Austin or even McMahon with Michaels, but they were all play-by-play men. Still, I would argue that Jesse was associated with certain wrestlers in a memorable way the same way that Bobby Heenan was associated with Ric Flair or Stu and Helen Hart. He wasn't particularly good at in WWF until '98. With the better workers he probably would've done a good job, but not with the sillier gimmicks. I don't think it was a particular strength of Ross' getting over shitty gimmicks. But do you enjoy Ross' football fetish? Jesse made his fair share of inappropriate remarks and was never shy of throwing in political comments, and he had a whole bag of bullshit whether it was his fake made-up Navy SEALS career or his Hollywood ties, but that was part of the package. Jim Cornette rambled all the time. Half the match he was going off on some rant. Obviously, we have different tastes, but Cornette was hardly PC on commentary and he loved an andecote or bad joke as much as Ventura. Hayes on the other hand was forgettable. Anyway, I wouldn't put Jesse in the Hall. I wouldn't even have a ballot or put things to a vote. I think Meltzer should simply induct people based on his own research. But it seems Dave loves a poll and a good vote.

I'm not trying to deflate the argument for Hart. I simply think there's an element of favouritism where people try to draw as many positives as they can for the candidates they like.

I don't know what order Jesse enters my head, but this idea that it was all Hogan and Vince and everyone else was window dressing is far too dismissive. Hell, Hogan wasn't even on TV when I became a wrestling fan. He was off hiding under a rock somewhere. You can't have much of a show with just Hogan and Vince. The WWF's success stemmed from Hogan and Vince + the product. Jesse fronted the product and played a big part in getting it over. I wouldn't say he was as synonymous with WWF as Russell was with Memphis or Ross with WCW because the WWF was bigger than those two companies. Mind you, being synonymous with a company doesn't necessarily make you good. Russell was a great commentator and Ross was an annoying prick who was worse at getting people over than Jesse if you ask me. How was Hart's music production influential? Should we put Rick Derringer in the HOF? How about James Alan Johnston?

That's easy. They're both overrated.

Which is exactly what Jesse and Vince did. There was a massive audience who were sold on WWF because of Jesse and Vince, many of whom had never seen wrestling before. A worker comes out and does a segment or match, but Jesse commentated entire shows. He was a visible and audible part of WWF's image. To me, growing up, he was on par with the other wrestling personalities. You got it around the wrong way. When I think of Jesse I think of Hogan not necessarily vice versa. Hogan, Tito, Rude and Steamboat were guys that Jesse had continuous shtick about. There's probably others but I can't recall them. Jesse ragged on Steamboat all the time, which continued through to his WCW run. And he pimped Rude hard. I don't think anybody got a wrestler over more in that time frame than Jesse Ventura with Rick Rude. WWF wasn't that kind of wrestling or at least it gradually moved away from it. 80s WWF was very good at angles and storylines and turning people but there wasn't much payoff with the matches. Jerry already explained the dynamic Jesse brought to those matches. Do you really think peak Jim Ross could've made those matches any better than they were? I can't say I particularly care about any of these things, but every commentator has their annoying quirks whether it's JR's obsession with football, Walton's racist jokes or Lawler and puppies. Cornette was no different from Jesse when it came to rambling. Gorilla Monsoon had a whole laundry list of annoying quirks. Lord Alfred Hayes would mishear a question and go off on some unrelated spiel.

Jesse was synonymous with a major boom period for the WWF not only nationally but internationally as Jerry and Jerome and I can attest to. It's stupid to compare him with what Russell did regionally. Russell would have flopped in the WWF just like he didn't pan out in WCW. The same thing happened to Ross the first time he was in the WWF and Solie when he worked for the NWA yet no-one holds these fish out of water periods against them. Besides, they were all frontmen and the straight guy. It makes more sense to compare those guys with Monsoon. People are massively underrating how difficult it is to be a good commentator. There simply haven't been that many in the history of professional wrestling. There's also a bit of favouritism going on. Jimmy Hart sucked after leaving Memphis yet people are trying to find extra reasons for him to go in like music production.

C'mon, Bobby Heenan wasn't a character? Good Ol' JR isn't a character? Lawler? Lance Russell? Kent Walton? Unless you have zero personality you're a character to some extent or another. Jesse could go off on tangents at times, but I agree with a lot of what Jerry wrote. Jesse was awesome and I don't get the disdain. How can people like that dipshit who commentated for All Japan and dislike Jesse? And Rude was definitely a guy you associated with Jesse since he was the winner of the "Body Award." Other guys I immediately associate with Jesse are Hogan, Steamboat and Tito. I don't think Jesse belongs in the Hall but it's perplexing to why people don't think he's good. And what was wrong with Tony? The standard of wrestling commentary was never so high that Tony was poor.

Personally, I like Jesse's WCW work better than his WWF stuff with Jesse and Tony being my favourite WCW pair. The WWF may not have skipped a beat when Jesse left because they had Bobby, but listen to some '93 commentary after they've both left and tell me Jesse wasn't missed. Alternatively, listen to the rancid Bobby/Tony pairing and tell me Jesse was replaceable. Jesse was an awesome part of pro-wrestling from that era. One thing that needs to be taken into account about heel commentators is that Lawler had to gradually move away from a heel colour gig otherwise people would have gotten sick of him. Plus it didn't really fit the attitude era of shades of gray. Another thing I wanted to point out is that it's bullshit that Walton didn't bury workers or matches. He did it all the time. He also made uncomfortable racial comments especially when Kwango wrestled, but I think that was more a byproduct of the times. Walton was an easy one to get in because voters can watch one or two WoS matches and think he's worthy. Getting guys like McManus and Pallo and Kellet in is going to be much tougher.

Yes. I'm not saying every single person who should be in is already in. I am saying that it seems like we've crossed a threshold of inducting obvious people, and now we're just arguing almost entirely about borderline candidates. When that happens, does it mean less to be in the HOF? Wrestling has happened less and the system has produced less stars in the last decade than in any other 10 year period ever. Hans Schmidt should probably be in. John Cena should probably be in. The Rock & Roll Express should probably be in. Jerry Jarrett should probably be in. I'm sure there are others as well. But we seem out of slam dunk picks after Cena goes in this year. If, from here, keeping the HOF open means someone is just going to get in every year, then I think the HOF will weaken over time and in a decade, we'll be inducting anyone who ever had a modicum of stardom. A HOF needs an industry that continues to churn out worthwhile candidates to stay relevant. That isn't happening. Therefore, the concept feels self-serving now. We induct people every year because someone has to go in, not because there are still dozens of worthwhile people to induct (without lowering the bar). While I don't think anyone is arguing candidates that they don't think deserve to go in, I do think most of the people being argued now would not be argued if the system were still producing stronger picks. It just seems like it's run its course. There are Mexican and British wrestlers who deserve to go in but never will because of the stupid voting system.

What's next? Sean Mooney? Danny Davis? Earl and Dave Hebner? Mr. Fuji?

It was pretty much a squash from the beginning, I thought. Iron Eagle seemed okay to me. It takes all sorts to make the wrestling world go round.

BTW, the Horsemen vs. Armstrong/Horner/Allen Iron Eagle six-man from the following week is a fun match with Eagle & Co. eating some big offense.

That tag was all right. The body of the match with Arn, Windham and Armstrong is good, but Horner sucks. Didn't really strike me as anything special and no-one gave a top draw performance, but I guess you need to watch it in context albeit while torturing yourself. Did you watch the Bobby Eaton/Scott Steiner part of the guantlet? I loved that match so much I think I voted for it in the Smarkschoice poll as a quirk.

TITO SANTANA VS. THE WORLD #32 -- The Earthquake I used to dig using Earthquake in WrestleFest, but that's about the only thing I dig about Tenta. This turned into a schmoz involving Earthquake, Tugboat, Dino Bravo and Hacksaw Jim Duggan, which is a pretty sad indictment of where Tito was at by this point. TITO SANTANA VS. THE WORLD #33 -- "The North-South Connection" Dick Murcoch & Adrian Adonis This was really weak. I can't stand these WWF face-in-peril matches that are half the length of a Southern tag. Rocky Johnson was Tito's partner. TITO SANTANA VS. THE WORLD #34 -- "The World's Strongest Man" Dino Bravo This was surprising good considering it was Dino Bravo. Of course they didn't really do much of anything, but still it's Dino Bravo. I wonder if Bravo wasn't as bad as I remember or if I'm just going soft. The finish was weird as Dino caught him clean off the ropes with the sidewalk slam. Kind of anti-climatic.

Satanico, El Dandy, Fujiwara, Jumbo and Bull Nakano strike me as better than Bobby Eaton in 1990 (to name five), but I guess it's open to debate.

Arn smokes Eaton as far as I'm concerned, but I'd like to know if 20+ years later anyone would really consider Eaton to have been top five in the world.

I don't agree with a straight up fourth year comparison. Kyoko, Takako and Yoshida were from the same class but the Inoues were pushed before her with Kyoko getting the early push that was meant for Takako. Hase's push began in '87. His juniors career would make a better comparison. Because of Yoshida's knee injury, you could limit it to Hase's '88 against Yoshida's '92.

I wanted to compare Takada to another flakey ass wrestler and the Shawn Michaels comparison amused me. It's a bit unfair on Michaels, tho. I still think you're overstating Yoshida's 92 and I don't agree that she was better than Toyota or Yamada, but accepting all that, how does it put Yoshida on the level of Hase? If, for argument's sake, we define Hase's peak as his shift into the heavyweight ranks then surely the comparable period is either his OE period (overseas experience) or his early juniors work. I'm not trying to be snarky here. Objectively speaking, his experience level was far above Yoshida's. To say a midcard Joshi worker was better than one of the better heavyweights in Japan is a bit extreme. She may have been more fun to watch for a Joshi fan, but if you said that Kyoko was better than Hase then that's something I could buy. To me, Yoshida was below Takako's '93 and I don't know if you could argue for Takako's '93 as being anything more than underrated. There's a bunch of 80s Joshi midcard workers who were comparable to '92 Yoshida. I don't see how she hit such great heights but I guess I'm not a huge fan.

You could probably argue that 2006 was the peak of Finlay's American work, but I think Finlay is similar to Negro Navarro in that his best work has come long after his physical prime. Early WoS Finlay is awesome, but as soon as he hooked up with Princess Paula it took a nose dive.

That's some rampant Yoshida fanboyism right now. She was put in lengthy matches in '92 with other midcard girls to raise their stature and get them over. She did a good job in those matches, but she wasn't on the level of a Toyota or Yamada in the hierarchy or as a worker. She was carried by Kyoko otherwise they would have had better matches. None of Yoshida's matches that year were great; they're worth watching because they were nice matches that filled in the year and gave a decent picture of what was happening on the rest of the card. After ARSION changed direction, her best match was another shoot style bout against Megumi Fujii. There's no need to compare her with the Shawn Michaels of Japanese wrestling, however.

This is a difficult question to answer as there isn't enough footage for most of my favourite workers, but Tenryu, Austin and Hart strike me as guys who were pretty average pre-peak. A lot of AJW workers got good early, perhaps as a result of mandatory retirement but more likely due to training and background.

Yoshida wasn't a superb worker in '92. She was a promising youngster who had good matches with her peers and was carried by Kyoko in the JGP. Yoshida was great for about 18 months while working a style that her company ultimately dropped. I'd take Hase's career output over that if I were even the teeniest bit interested in New Japan.

There's no way that Yoshida's AJW work is as good as Hase's peak. I don't even like Hase and I think that's a crazy statement.

Kawada was meant to be the heel and Misawa the face, at least in the early part of their feud.