ohtani's jacket

I love Black Terry and Negro Navarro and Solar and all the rest, but the only reason they're "the best in the world" is because the young guys coming through are crap. On the flipside, they've made me go back and appreciate veterans from all eras which is a new way to watch wrestling.

Dale Martin/Joint Promotions probably pushed the most black wrestlers of any territory in the 70s.

MJH's point about the TV director is spot-on and something that's almost never mentioned. Well done.

That Demolition vs. Brain Busters match where the Demos get themselves deliberately DQ'ed is as fun as anything on NWA TV at the time.

I don't know if that was directed at my comments on blown lucha spots, but even if it wasn't I feel the need to clarify. High flying lucha is what I tend to have issue with. Heavyweight style lucha is one of my favorite styles to watch, but the high flyer guys just kill me with how they tend to turn every match into a "can you top this" contest. Dives are cool, flippy spots are cool, but like I said before I prefer wrestling of any style or origin to at least have the pretense of two guys engaging in an athletic contest rather than an Olympic floor exercise. I wasn't trying to direct my comment at anyone. I just saw lucha being lumped together with highflyers and cruiserweights. Some of the breakneck stuff can be good like minis matches in recent years. It's a matter of doing it well, really.

Well, I've been trying to watch Demolition and PG-13 matches. The Demolition matches aren't great but they're not exactly bad either. I don't think their offence was a problem but by the same token their structure wasn't fantastic either. PG-13's USWA matches were far more entertaining even if the ones I saw were basically angles, but I'm not seeing how they're anything more than good at their bit. The most interesting thing so far was the Rock 'n' Roll Express working heel.

There are a lot of different reasons why a wrestling match might be good and I don't really see the need to pick one element over another. If pressed, I would probably say selling since that's what matters to me most, but my definition of selling encompasses quite a lot. In the past I broke it down into acting and selling with the end result being everything they do to put the match over. This isn't the only wrestling I enjoy, however. If you watch a lot of wrestling, as I do in phases, you'll know that there isn't one particular way that works. There's a few comments in this page that suggest that all lucha is the same, but "lucha" isn't a style in the same sense that "puroresu" isn't a style. Ultimately, I think it's better for wrestling fans to dig deeper, look harder and have less preconceptions about what's good and what's bad, because wrestling for the most part is imperfect and being a fan is about finding good matches in whatever form they come.

Nice one Arnold.

I have no idea who PG-13 are. Can someone recommend a match?

That's a lucha spot. I doubt the Michinoku Pro crew had ever seen a Memphis match in their lives.

I was hoping this was that Don Corelone guy who wrestled Canek.

I wish they'd sign more.

The Simmon's interview links to this -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TnSPQGHz7A Forgot how awesome that was, especially the flick of the nose. The botch is amusing as well --

The point isn't whether it was Baba who came up with the specific idea for the spot. The point (and it's conjecture, really) is about whose idea it was to do the spot in the first place. Did the workers come up with it themselves and decide to throw it into the match or was it something Baba wanted them to do for whatever booking reason? It may have been something they thought up to add heat to their match. Heck, they may have even done it without discussing it too much since they weren't exactly on the greatest of terms, but if we're going to pressume that the workers came up with the ideas for the matches without Baba knowing what was happening then we might as well give the workers credit for all of All Japan's booking. In fact, if Motoko ran the show then the Baba you're describing basically did nothing. That fits the image of an "impotent" Baba that some people like to portray, but I think it's bollocks. If you think that's what it's like working for a Japanese company in Japan, I won't persuade you otherwise. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about things like the decision to unmask Misawa and how it was to be done. If we take your line of thinking to the extreme, Baba told them to do something shooty at the end of the match and they ran off like giddy little school children and came up with the whole unmasking thing on the basis of their collective wrestling experience. Baba in turn watched the match and was shocked but pleasantly surprised at his workers' initiative. Look, I don't mean to be childish about this, but it's not some terrible assumption to make that Baba was as involved in booking decisions as a film director on set and not some executive producer floating around in the background worrying about money issues. I'm not saying he was draconian about it since I don't rightly know, but I've read and heard enough to believe that he wasn't leaving it all up to the workers, that's for sure. You mention Jumbo and his 20 fucking years, but I've always read that Baba had very clear ideas about how Jumbo should wrestle and my argument (in a roundabout way perhaps) was that no influence from Baba would've resulted in a different type of Jumbo. I do not believe that Jumbo, or any of them for that matter, worked in EXACTLY the way they wanted to or would have if Baba wasn't boss. Yes, it could've just as easily been Kawada or any of the others, but generally speaking someone has to book the finish to the match and I don't see why you're so reluctant to consider Baba as that person. I can only assume it doesn't gel with what you've known about All Japan over the years. I don't know how long Baba was sick for. It was a secret that Baba was sick at all. But I certainly think that the booking in 1998 was significantly worse than in 1995. My argument was that it would have happened sooner if Baba had gotten sick earlier and that you wouldn't have seen the same sort of matches from All Japan if someone else had been the booker in the mid-90s, but you don't seem to think that the matches have Baba's fingerprint over them so I can't be bothered arguing the point. I'll finish this by saying it was Baba's company and Baba called the shots. He may have looked like some big smiling oddity, but he was clever and shrewd. He was also a wrestler-promoter who would actually get in the ring with his talent both in matches and in training. He was parent, teacher and boss to guys like Misawa and Kawada. If Baba told them to do something they would have, within reasonable limits, done it, and that extends to things as unfathomable to us as who to marry or who not to marry. That's a theoretical example, but possible. Given this type of relationship, the idea that Baba could have instructed them to do something different or special in a match is a very minor thing indeed.

Not feeling that.

There are some good matches on there, but it's not a particularly well made comp. It would be fun to make a better one. I will say that the comp has some of Takada's better matches on it, such as: Nobuhiko Takada vs. Akira Maeda (11/10/88) Nobuhiko Takada vs. Bob Backlund (12/22/88) Nobuhiko Takada vs Naoki Sano ***1/2 (12/20/92)

This has put me off getting the UWF-i set, I was going to get that and the Bryan Danielson or the 6 disk Ultimo set. Don't let me put you off. There are UWF-i matches that a lot of people like. I doubt that they're on the comp, however.

Nope. And you don't hate UWF-I nearly as much as I hate WWE, too much Sano and Yamazaki in it for you to truly hate it. I don't much care for Yamazaki and Sano could've been so much more in UWF-i.

The best shoot style is RINGS since it most closely resembles Pancrase and Vale Tudo. My favourite is UWF-2, though I'm partial to PWFG as well. No prizes for guessing the worst. UWF-i is to shoot style what Jerome thinks WWE is to pro-wrestling.

Nobody said Baba was laying the matches out. The point is that whether it was Baba who came up Kawada punching Misawa et al., he almost certainly knew about it beforehand. If Baba trusted his workers to come up with "something shooty" and kicked back on commentary waiting to see what would happen, it was only because HE'D overseen them become "collectively smart workers who'd spent their entire careers in All Japan training, watching, listening to how you're suppose to work." I don't buy that the workers were left to their own devices for the simple reason that in no facet of Japanese culture are subordinates empowered to make decisions of their own, but I agree that it doesn't matter whether Baba came up with the ideas or someone else. My point was that it could've just as easily been Baba who thought it was a good idea to have the 1993 RWTL match resemble the one from '88. You don't even have to give that much instruction for that to happen. Or perhaps he poked his head into the locker, with top hat and cape, and told them to make it "shooty boys." Hell, maybe he didn't go into the locker at all. Perhaps he was daydreaming about his next trip to Hawaii and only noticed the match when he was distracted by the crowd. If Baba didn't have a big hand in the final product, I'd love to know why the booking and the matches declined as his health did. The fact that he "allowed" it to happen is generally what you'd expect as his heatlh deteriorated.

I'm gonna throw out a couple: Must see high flyers match -- Bracito De Oro/Cicloncito Ramirez/Mascarita Magica vs Damiancito El Guerrero/El Fierito/Pierrothito, 10/3/97 Must see match with blood -- Trio Fantasia v. Thundercats (Masks vs. Masks), 12/8/91 Must see mat work -- Blue Panther vs. Atlantis from 1997 Must see 1970s match -- Mark Rocco vs. Marty Jones (7/26/78) Must see 1980s match -- Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs Super Tiger (1/16/85 handheld) Must see 1990s match -- Espanto Jr. vs. El Hijo Del Santo (UWA World Welterweight Title Match), 5/14/92 Must see tag match -- Kung Fu/Pete Roberts vs. Johnny Kincaid/Dave Bond (10/4/77)

Watched a couple of things, none of which really grabbed me. The Doink vs. Marty Jannetty 2/3 falls match was okay for a 1993 WWF match but I didn't get the sense that it was some kind of hidden gem. Watched the Regal vs. Austin strap match from 2001 as well and thought that was also predictable. After that, I tried to get some kind of Savage tribute going and watched a match against Steamboat from Houston, but it was after Wrestlemania III and I didn't see much point in a match after the blow off. It was also a pro-shot match with no commentary which was a bit weird.

I think you're getting confused with the Rey Mysterio Jr./Psicosis match from '95. I can't think of anyone who cites Santo vs. Psicosis as the best lucha match and in truth it's not very good.

Just take this bit: and add Baba to it. Do you really think that the workers worked out all that out by themselves with no input from Baba? If Baba's only job was deciding who went over, he can't have had a difficult time of it considering how conservative his booking was.

I don't see how Savage looking the way he did in that photo on the TMZ website could've made any sort of comeback.