ohtani's jacket

Blue Panther/Shu El Guerrero vs Black Terry/Villano III (2004?) This is the match that Black Terry's son put on youtube for us. It's thirty minutes of old school lucha, worked entirely on the mat. I've watched it twice now, and of all the mat based lucha that's ever been pimped, this is up there with the best of it. Of all the small show, veteran matches that have been pimped this decade, this is almost certainly the best. You almost have to watch it twice to catch all the subtleties. The highlight for lucha fans is watching Blue Panther in a match like this & his exchanges with Villano III in the first fall are AMAZING. You don't have to be a lucha fan to enjoy this, just a pro-wrestling fan, as Robert on DVDVR said. Non-lucha fans will enjoy the physicality of the mat work, which is sometimes mistaken as being loose in lucha, while lucha fans will be blown away by how much further they take some well known spots. One of my favourite matches this decade.

Perro Aguayo vs. Villano III, WWF World Light Heavyweight Title (UWA - 12/5/84) I'd love to say that Perro could go back in the day, but he was a pretty limited worker. His approach was pretty direct, either going straight for the pin or submission or throwing out a clothesline, piledriver, tope, senton, double footed stomp, that sort of thing. Similar to his son, though the younger Aguayo is far more athletic. This was essentially a juniors match and had the same flaws as other matches from the time, namely the "get up and go" mentality. I liked Villano's submission work and his tope attacks, but that was about it. I'm not a huge Villanos fan, but I prefer their brawling to the scientific stuff. We need to bring back that term scientific. The match was OK. UWA can be either gold or wildly disappointing.

Mascarita Dorada/Tzuki vs. Pequeño Damian 666/Pierrothito, 3/30/08 Guadalajara When I said lucha had lost its charm, I clearly forgot about Tzuki. I have all the time in the world for these guys, because they work like rudos v technicos. The rudo work wasn't great here, but the technicos were oustanding. I'm not a fan of modern lucha offence, but it's amazing how much better the minis are at pacing and set-up (or perhaps they just look awesome running the ropes.) I don't even mind how many rotations Dorada does, because he looks so spectacular going round and round the bend. If they'd upped the ante a little, they could've tore the roof off the mother, but props all the same. The dives at the end were amazing. The rudos deserve credit for being on the receiving end, particularly when you see the slow motion replay of Dorada's descent. Too many highlights to name -- Tzuki wanting to box, Dorada's snazzy footwork (signalling his charge into the ropes), Tzuki signing autographs for the kids and high fiving babies... My personal fave is the fake out spot Tzuki does when he's inchworming the middle rope. The minis are the crew to watch.

La Sombra, Sagrado, Volador Jr. vs. El Hijo Del Fantasma, La Mascara, Valiente (Mexican National Trios Titles), 04/30/08 There's no way I'm going to criticise this match, since that would be completely dickish. Instead I'm going to focus on the good points: * Valiente is awesome. Not since the days of Halcon Negro has there been such a fun guy on the undercard. Rudo Halcon Negro had the shtick and bump spots, but the plumper, rounder Valiente has Super Astro's footwork and agility & can roll with a wristlock like a legendary fat man. * El Hijo Del Fantasma, La Mascara and Valiente have a good look about them. The highlight for me was their decision to dive as one. Go boys! * The kids aren't allowed to climb the ring anymore, but there were plenty of kids and babies. Love the publico. * And the kids got what they wanted to see, big moves and a tit for tat finish. It was a match for the kids and thoroughly entertained them. Like the best kids' movies, a fair few adults enjoyed it too. * Valiente's three step springboard is an adventure into another stratosphere where fat men fall gracefully from the sky. * The ending, where all the men raised each other's hands, capped off the spirit the match was worked in.

Mano Negra & Negro Navarro vs. Solar I & Super Astro, 10/14/07 Nice. There was some beautiful lucha in this match. Nothing amazing, just age old pros working a classic lucha style. Solar was in fine form, particularly in the vintage second fall, and Super Astro got amazing height on his springboard tope. Watching Super Astro float is a sight to behold. I thought the rudos were a little quiet in this, though Navarro was always lurking. Anytime Navarro and Solar square off, you expect something special. Once again it wasn't just the holds, but the way out of them that was so impressive. And there's no half stepping the finishes either. These guys put some thought into each pin. They were out there, they were wrestling. A flick of the wrists and it could be all over. Not a bad one to kick back to.

Satanico vs. Jerry Estrada, hair vs. hair, 3/23/90 Jerry Estrada again. I swear if you can't work a hair match with Satanico then you can't work. If I didn't have such a huge dislike for the guy, I might be able to appreciate what he did here, but it was crap. It was Estrada's match from the start, yet it was nothing like an Estrada match. He seemed more sober than usual, perhaps that was the problem. He developed a strange fixation with Satanico's shoulder and you could feel the match waste away as he worked over Satanico's arm. Brawl motherfucker! Nobody wants to see that in a lucha libre hair match. If there was ever a time for Estrada to take mad bumps, blade and be thrown around like a ragdoll this was it. Satanico should've pummeled the fuck out of him. A clever piece of "psychology" from Estrada to take away the punch? This is lucha. It's a hair match. That's a form of mano o mano. You take a punch, get up and punch the guy back. Working the arm doesn't have a place in this kind of match, unless you're particularly excellent at hurting someone. Worst of all, he didn't give The Master room to sell the arm. Satanico should've taken this one by the scruff of the neck, but he didn't. I'm throwing it away.

Satanico vs. Sangre Chicana (Classic Lucha 5/28/1989) This was mano a mano and these two were men. Satanico has a buzz cut from losing his hair the month before and right from the start he's hunched over in his grappling stance, fingers stretched, ready to rearrange Chicana's face. The first lock-up is a beauty. In rugby we call it niggle, in wrestling it's a red rag to a bull. This isn't a great match by any stretch of the imagination, but it's awesome to watch the bout disintegrate. Chicana's none too happy with Satanico's aggressive start and he sends a bit of a message with a rougher than usual submission around the head (and face) area. A facial, if you will, to continue with the rugby parallel. And since he knows exactly what he's done, he starts the next fall by walking over to Satanico and delivering an apologetic open handed slap. Satanico spends the rest of the match slapping himself in the face. It's a pity this didn't turn into a bigger brawl than it was, though they did go into the crowd a lot, which in 1989 means everyone crowded around to get a better look. No blood, but Chicana had a punching combo Ultraman would've been proud of. The ref called the whole thing off, but even then they weren't paying any attention. Aborted greatness. Worth watching if you're a Satanico fan.

Dr. Wagner Jr/Mano Negra vs Super Astro/Ultramán Jr, 10/28/07, Arena Coliseo de Monterrey This seemed like a good opportunity to see Wagner work. I mean actually work. His first exchange with Ultraman was really good. It was pretty much test of strength stuff, but both guys have great grappling stances and there was real strength in the takedowns and the way they tried to hook each other. Niebla couldn't grab an arm and do anything with it, so this wasn't bad, but it was soon apparent that it was ALL Ultraman. Wagner was in the ring for almost the entire match, but boy was he content to get away with the bare minimum. I'm not sure what he's getting at with most of his posing. He looks like an exotico half the time. Ultraman battled away valiantly, making Mano Negra's stuff look really good and launching his combination punches on the doctor, but I'm having my doubts about how good a worker Wagner really is. Bit of a disappointment, though I had forewarning. Super Astro's tope is still a thing of beauty.

Dr. Wagner Jr. vs. Mr. Niebla, 9/3/97 (CMLL World Light Heavyweight Title) I wasn't sure what to make of this match. They worked hard on an Arena Coliseo show, and you never want to criticise something like that, but it was pretty much the epitome of the modern style. Wagner's a guy I really like, but I kept wishing he'd do something special. Niebla couldn't work the match from the ground up and wanted to head straight into the spots. It was up to Wagner to school him in that regard, but he pretty much rolled with it. The big difference between then and now was the third fall. They went longer and did plenty of cool stuff that today's guys should crib, but it was very much riposte grappling and the good doctor showed why he was so successful on tour with NJPW. Good for what it was, but even the Wagner heat segments lacked something.

Satanico vs. Pirata Morgan, hair vs. hair, AAA 11/26/93 Coming into this fight, I didn't expect it to be any good. Probably figured Satanico and Morgan had been in one hair match too many, and I just wanted to see what they were up to in AAA, but these guys... These guys were workers. Pirata Morgan was heavier in this match than I'm used to seeing and no longer the amazing bumper of the late 80s to early 90s. The extra weight hindered his mobility, but it didn't really matter since Morgan was always a worker first and a bumper second. I guess he belongs to a generation that got solid groundings in towns and cities across Mexico. It's not the same Pirata Morgan that gave such amazing performances against El Faraón and Masakre, and you could be excused for thinking it's a different guy, but hair vs. hair matches follow a rather standard pattern of kick/punch brawling & Pirata brought several touches to distinguish it from the norm. Considering how uncharismatic he seemed at this point, and how rapidy he slotted into the category of working vet, I think that speaks volumes for his professional training and background. Naturally it helps that he was wrestling the ageless Satanico, who made some pact with the Devil to remain a great worker. Satanico was once again the star of the match, as he had been more than a year earlier against El Dandy. The guy got so much out of so little. Satanico was basically throwing punches the whole match, interspersed with some knees, headbutts and the customary biting of the open wound. I defy anyone to tell me it was boring. The guy was a master. He kept punching different parts of the body and in the long final fall, where Pirata was going for the submission victory, Satanico punched his ribs to break the hold. Hair matches are all about brawling and bleeding. Jake Roberts was at ringside and he had a big shit eating grin on his face. It never ceases to amaze Jake what the human mind is capable of. The great rudos always have one trick up their sleeve. In Satanico's case it was claiming the foul when there was none. If you've watched any amount of Lucha, you know Satanico will pull a deliberate foul later on. It seems simple, but it's becoming a lost art. Another great moment -- Satanico has Pirata's shoulders pinned on the mat and really leans in on him to get the three count. Of course Morgan's trying to fight it, so Satanico starts pumping his legs to counter the resistance. None of these flashes pins, Satanico had just enough leverage to hold Morgan for a three count. How about Satanico's shriek every time Pirata catches his leg for a takedown? Or the way he sells the back of his head on every back bump? I guess this is the type of match that flew under the radar in the Rey Mysterio era. From memory there's not a single dive. If you prefer your Lucha to be fundamentally solid, I recommend checking this out.

The point of this rather regrettable thread was who adapted into the 90s. Hogan clearly adapted & became a 90s stars. If you think that's because of 80s booking fine. Personally, I think the Horsemen were positively 80s and the NWO positively 90s. They would've looked out of place in each other's era. You've got me confused about whether the 70s ended in 1984 or the 80s began in the late 70s and ran for twenty years. Nothing says the 80s are over more than Hogan leaving the company. I don't know if a year and half at the end of the 80s qualifies you as an 80s "star", but he was certainly an 80s worker and therefore failed to adapt. 80s heel Hogan joins forces with 80s stars Kevin Nash and Scott Hall to feud with 80s beach bum Sting? Yes, it looked like an episode of WWF Superstars or the Power Hour.

My argument it's that there was a seismic shift as soon as the calendar flipped over to January 1st, 1990. I was curious about how much of 80s wrestling managed to adapt through to the 90s, and I still don't see how the business wasn't changing in the early 90s. John mentioned that Hogan was still on top in the early 90s, but there was a concerted effort to make Warrior the top star in 1990. Yes this could have happened in 1986 if the time frame had been different, but in wrestling it wasn't. By 1996 you had Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels headlining a Wrestlemania. The roots of that are in the early 90s. It wasn't a case of adapting simply because it was the 90s, it was how business went. They lost the better part of their 80s audience and as business starts to decline, you see how things adapt or fail to adapt. As far as I'm concerned, 1990 WCW is the last year that looks like it could've been 80s NWA.

I think it's simply a matter of having a character and wrestling "in character." The important thing is that whatever the angle, storyline or feud is, all of that is just set-up. You need to pay it off in the match.

How effective was Hogan after dropping the title to the Warrior? I was part of the international audience at the time and that was pretty much it. WWF went off the air shortly thereafter. Was Warrior really an 80s star or the first attempt at making a 90s star? If the 90s didn't start until the Attitude era in '98 then what is it? A lost decade? What about the New Generation, Nitro, the NWO?

Well, I don't see the early 90s as a holdover from the 80s. I think it was a key transitional period & I'd argue that the wrestling landscape was changing even in 1990. Loss' idea that the 90s didn't start until '94-95 didn't even occur to me. I'd argue that the 90s started "earlier" than that.

Found this by accident, Black Cat talking about Mexico and Japan -- http://kuroneko.milkcafe.to/history.html

Can't really see a case for Hamada to be honest. Not sure if he was any more influential than Kotetsu Yamamoto or Fujiwara.

Mexico is a bit iffy since we don't have much TV. On the surface, guys like Satanico, MS-1, Lizmark, Los Brazos, Villanos all made the transition, with guys like Santo, Casas, El Dandy, Blue Panther, Atlantis, Pirata Morgan all peaking in the early 90s. Yet a lot of these guys didn't survive UWA folding or AAA taking over CMLL in popularity. Based on my limited knowledge, I assume the Toreo draws suffered the most, particularly Canek and Perro Sr. Fishman didn't seem to adapt well as a worker, but that might be self-inflicted. Emilio Charles, Jr. dropped off quickly in the 90s. Can't say too much about Herodes or Sangre Chicana since the 80s footage is so limited. Rayo seemed to do pretty well for himself in the 90s. Not sure about Cien Caras. I guess Mil Máscaras made money, which is what it's all about.

Cicloncito Ramirez, Pequeño Cochisse, Platita & Pequeño Sayama vs. Damiancito el Guerrero, Fierito, Tritoncito & Guerrerito del Futuro This was a Cibernetico at the end of '97, where the winner earned the right to wrestle in a "regular" tag match. If you read this blog, then you probably know who won. Bit of a shame really. There was never any guarantee of seeing the Minis on TV, but this was it for one of the best divisions anywhere in wrestling. There were classics to be had for the CMLL Mini Estrellas Title, but we never did get that Damiancito el Guerrero/Cicloncito Ramirez rematch. I'm happy to report that they went out in style. It wasn't a classic or anything, but it was quality wrestling and the kind of beautiful exchanges that you rarely see at Arena Coliseo anymore.

I finally took advantage of the pinned thread in this forum and starting renting PRIDE DVDs again. I'm backtracking over the stuff I already watched back in 2000, then I'll probably follow the advice of TheShawshankRudotion.

Japan Jumbo is an obvious choice, since the early 90s was the peak of his reputation in Japan as a worker and star. Not sure how much longer he could've continued as a top worker, but he clearly adapted from the late 80s onwards. Hansen adapted well, but some credit has to go to the improvement in the younger AJPW guys as workers. Tenryu did a pretty great job of managing his bookings in the 90s. Perhaps the most successful freelancer in the history of Japanese pro-wrestling? Regardless of what you think of him as a worker, he pretty much delivered in a big match setting. Hase did a good job switching to a heavier weight class, which is different from an 80s worker peaking in the 90s. Choshu booked himself well, I guess. Maeda was still a draw throughout most of the 90s, but his knees were gone by the end of 1990. Fujiwara was always an awesome worker, so I guess Takada takes the crown for becoming a major star in the mid-90s. Gran Hamada is a bit like Fujiwara in that he was always a talented worker, but I guess he deserves credit for keeping up with a style he more or less pushed through. Bull Nakano deserves some credit for adapting to AJW's circumstances after '88-89 and creating a new character. Devil Masami became a great working vet, without having to be the top star of her own promotion. On the negative side, Fujinami really struggled in the 90s and Choshu's Army, though they were old, couldn't remain relevant. I thought Chigusa Nagayo and Lioness Asuka struggled upon their return, though they had drawing clout. Jaguar was OK, but not truly great.

Which workers, managers, commentators, etc. do you guys think survived the switch from the 80s to the 90s? Who were most notably left behind?

Satanico vs. El Dandy, hair vs. hair, 9/18/92 (59th Anniversary Show) This was the third time these guys had squared off in as many years and not a match the fans wanted to see. Satanico and El Dandy were great workers, so there were enough touches to make it enjoyable, but it wasn't as good as their previous matches -- which weren't the greatest to begin with. It was kinda in keeping with Dandy's matches against Bestia Salvaje (9/4) and La Fiera (11/27), two competent rudos with whom Dandy had flat performances. I guess when it comes to something like Dandy vs. Casas, it's easier to "create," since there's so much heat to work with. When folks get restless, it becomes harder to get the reaction you want, particularly when it's a match people don't want to see again. Satanico was more aggressive than their past meetings, talking a lot and nailing Dandy with the kind of headbutts that real wrestling fans appreciate. He extracted a good looking bladejob from Dandy's skull & was generally nefarious. It was Dandy's performance that was a little on the weak side. The thing about technico Dandy is that you still expect him to be an asskicker. Here he was too much of a babyface. There was an awesome punching exchange that led to one mother of a DDT, but not enough brawling. One minute he's bleeding everywhere, the next minute he's celebrating like he won the football in extra time. The finish was not cool. Satanico did one of the best "cheat to win" victory celebrations I've ever seen, only for some Tunney type to overrule it. So Dandy got a restart. If it was scored on points, Satanico would've won for shoving Atlantis the fuck out of the way on the outside. El Dandy was beginning to slide here, nearing the end of his great run.

El Hijo del Santo vs. El Averno, 10/22/04 (WWA World Welterweight Championship) Man, Lucha has lost its charm. After watching raw, grainy footage of Santo and Espanto Jr, this came across as pretty damn lifeless. I was kinda hoping that Averno would prove himself to be more than a foil, but he took little or no initiative in the matwork and despite Santo still being pretty slick, this was just a series of spots. It's all neatly packaged, but I saw better work on the Todos X el Todos show & those guys are truly ancient.

You can't paint a picture of what these people are really like if you can't be sure that the stories were told as they actually happened. At the end of the day, Ring of Hell is Matt's take on a business he hates, weaved together in a narrative of Chris Benoit's life and career. There's more of Matt's voice in the book that anyone else's and that was the most disappointing aspect for me. In any half-way decent documentary or non-fiction book I've seen or read, both sides have been represented, which gives us the opportunity to judge for ourselves. Ring of Hell lacked the multiple perspectives that make that possible. It's not a matter of getting guys to go on record who disagree with certain claims, it's about including all of the information possible, instead of trying to drive home a point. I do think he tried to be fair, but I also think he omitted a lot of stuff in an attempt to connect A with B. In writing the book (or perhaps in researching it), it appears that Matt found a series of correlations between events in Benoit's life, correlations that had wider implications for the wrestling business as a whole. That's fair enough. My question is -- did he test his own theory? Was there any point where he refused to let counter evidence get in the way of a good story? Given he only had a month's deadline, I think they're valid questions. People who are not wrestling fans or only very casual ones don't know what's a crock and what's not, therefore the author's voice is the most persuassive. Perhaps you're right that dyed in the wool fans would never listen to what the book has to say, but in refusing to believe any old story it also means they're not easily worked.