ohtani's jacket

This was really good. I could see an argument for it being too short, but even at this length it seemed that Vampiro was fairly gassed. The key to me was you're running your Anniversary Show in the same building you use every week so how do you make the bout different from your weekly main events? I thought they did a really good job of making this feel like a spectacle. Ultimo & Rey deserve a ton of credit for making the CMLL tag belts seem like major titles. That's hard to do in a regular wrestling promotion let alone a lucha promotion. And then they laid out the match in a way that was different from the run-of-the-mill weekly main event. The primera caida seemed like it would be a typical rudo-won fall, but instead they pulled a double swerve that felt completely organic and not at all scripted. It was actually important in the grand scheme of things too as it took the wind out of the tecnico's sails and made them seem disconnected and disheartened. They made a comeback, of course, but it felt like they were wrestling as individuals and not a team. Vampiro threw Bucanero around like a rag doll to win the second fall and the doctor seemed concerned about Rey. I don't know if that was a work to add some drama to the bout, but you basically had Vampiro blown up, Bucanero shaking off the cobwebs, and a shit ton of drama heading into the deciding fall. The tercera was fascinating because it was where GdI's teamwork shone through, and when that teamwork proved superior, the rudo fans at ringside with the cowbells knew they were going over. GdI had another great celebration, and Vampiro gave Ultimo a handshake and a hug. I don't know if he was supposed to do that because it looked like it took Ultimo by surprise, and as great as their teamwork was, they still cheated in the primera caida, but it added the spectacle. If anyone says this was a disappointment because it was rushed, or the pacing felt off, my argument would be that it could've been a hell of a lot worse.

Little known fact -- that match was converted from VHS to DVD using the audio visual equipment at a Japanese junior high school.

How did Lawler fare better in Japan than Tenryu did in the States?

Danny Hodge is fucking amazing in the Brisco match. Jerry Brisco doesn't look half bad either, but Danny Hodge. Wow.

Meat and potatoes Coliseo match. Porky, Atlantis and Rayo wrestle Wagner and Los Hermanos Dinamita at the Anniversary show, so there was a bit of mask ripping/pulling between Rayo and Wagner. I liked the match-up between Atlantis and Black Tiger in the tercera, and there was some fun stuff between Porky and Takemura as well. This was the type of match you take the kids to so they can see the luchadores live in person.

For my money, Atlantis is the best tecnico trios match worker of all-time. I'm sure people would argue that Santo is better, and they have a point because Santo's trios spots are phenomenal, but Santo comes and goes. Atlantis was such a mainstay in CMLL and the glue in so many trios matches. He doesn't have a 1.000 batting average, but no one in lucha does. But if you have a trios or an atomico with 2-3 average tecnicos, there is nobody I would choose over Atlantis as the guy to salvage something from the wreck. The rudos are important too, but you've got to have at least one good tecnico that can work some exciting sequences into the bout. I never get tired of seeing how Atlantis matches up with some of the better rudos. It's something I anticipate every time Atlantis is in the bout. Trios matches are mostly about structure and form, but they're also about match-ups, and if you've been around the block a bit, the match-ups become one of the more intriguing parts of a trios match. I really like the way Atlantis matches up with a lot of guys. In many ways, instead of a list of great Atlantis matches in my head, I have a list of favored match-ups. He does have his limitations, however. I think some of the criticisms that have been made of him on this site are fair. Atlantis has been in some classic singles matches, but I don't think he's the lead. Great dance partner, but I'm not convinced he can lead. I don't think he's great as the lead guy in an apuesta build either. I didn't like a lot of the build to the Villano match or the Mano Negra match, for example. I like his work with Wagner, but they never had an apuesta. I've made my thoughts on Takada clear in the past. I'm not gonna bash him here. We probably went too far with it in the past. He's a guy who deserves a fresh take from different people.

This reminds me of Mike Oles' old chestnut that Kobashi had a better '93 than Hokuto. I have a question: are people still bothered by crying Kobashi as much as they used to be?

Nobody is claiming that Toyota invented the basic Joshi style.. What we're claiming is that those "Toyotaisms" influenced the style and changed the way the matches were worked. Manami Toyota had a massive influence on the way Joshi matches were worked in the 90s. I will ignore any influence beyond the 90s because if people don't believe she was influential in the 90s then the argument stops there. Joshi changed in the 90s. Joshi changed dramatically from the early 90s to the mid 90s, then it shifted again in the late 90s. If you compare a match from 1983 to 1993, etc., you will see similarities but also key differences. One of the biggest changes is that there was more emphasis on the matches. As the workers became more athletic and the audience shifted from schoolgirls to male hardcore fans (a gradual shift), singles matches became more significant, tag matches became longer, the cards became deeper, and AJW gradually began to resemble AJPW or NJPW in the way they booked shows. Of course, it was the interpromotional era so a thing of things were possible that weren't achievable in the 80s. The promoters were able to play around with the cards, create new match-ups, and promote dream matches. Unfortunately, they ran it into the ground, which led to the bloated and excessive mid-90s style where the only alternative left was to do more, work for longer, do bigger and more dangerous spots, and try to outdo what they'd done before. And no-one was more guilty of that than Manami Toyota. Nevertheless, as the style began to change in the early 90s, Manami was at the forefront of this new wave of women's wrestling. She was influential not only in singles matches, but also in tag matches. In fact, you could argue that she was more influential in Joshi tag wrestling than singles, but from the time Meltzer anointed her as the most outstanding wrestler in the world, she was the standard bearer for what was then modern Joshi. And later she suffered the backlash toward Joshi and the things Meltzer wrote about her in the Observer. Why's that? Because she was synonymous with the style at the time. If you didn't like the Joshi style of working, then Toyota was the main target. We know she didn't create the go-go-go workrate style of Joshi. We know the roots of that style go back to the 70s. We know she wasn't the first highflyer, for want of a better term. It's very easy to trace her basic style back to the Jumping Bomb Angels. But she took the go-go-go style and worked matches that kept growing bigger and bigger, and more and more ambitious. She had an influence on the pace of matches, the rhythm,, the layout, how hard-hitting the action was. You could argue that lot of her opponents were forced to work her style and her type of match, but look at how the workrate began to increase across the board. Look at how tag matches began to be worked in the same style across different promotions. Again, there are tropes you see in the 80s, but watch the workrate creep up and up. The midcard girls started upping their workrate. The heavyweights started upping their workrate. Some girls were regarded as flat out Toyota clones. Hikari Fukuoka being the prime example. Now I'm not saying that Toyota was responsible for all of this, but she was sure as hell at the forefront of it. Hokuto was important and Kyoko Inoue too. Yamada actually deserves some credit too. I get why people like Hokuto, Bull and Aja but they don't like Toyota. Christ, that's been going on for the past 25 years. But outright dismissals of Toyota's influence or the role she played in women's wrestling? C'mon. Maybe we're going her too much credit, but you can't just give her no credit whatsoever. Think of a Joshi worker who people don't like -- Momoe Nakanishi, for example, or KAORU. Who do they more closely resemble in style? Jaguar Yokota, Hokuto, Chigusa, or Manami Toyota? I think the answer is pretty obvious. After Maki Ueda retired, Jackie Sato became a very serious worker with more focus on mat work then during the Beauty Pair era, though I can't say that with entire confidence since we don't have a lot of her singles stuff from that era. However, there was a definite shift from brawling to serious wrestler. The same thing happened with Chigusa. The difference is that she stole some moves from the UWF guys. I can't remember off the top of my head if Sato was influenced by Inoki or took any holds from strong style or men's wrestling in general. Nevertheless, idol star turned serious competitor was already a thing. I understand that the next generation of Joshi workers who idolized Chigusa wanted to work that hybrid style of hers. But it's strange to me that mock shooter gets accredited to Chigusa throughout modern Joshi history, but Toyota has no influence? The whole feminine thing was Toyota's own words about what she set out to do at the beginning of her career. Ring attire, image, the way a person looks, what type they are, etc. is a huge part of Joshi. We tend to not focus on it as much as Japanese fans do (although fans may do on other platforms), but in image conscious Japan it is a big deal. I was at a show once and some fans were discussing the size of Takako Inoue's nose compared to on tape. Crazy. I don't know if Toyota was the first to start wearing more elaborate attire, but she created a specific image for herself beyond bathing suits and wrestling boots. She even has this strange philosophy behind wearing black.

You're contradicting yourself. At first you said stylistically she wasn't representative of even just her era. Now, you're saying all she did was general "Joshiisms." You seem to think that to have an influence on anything you have to have been an originator. If that is the case, there is nothing influential about Chigusa. What did she do that was any different from Jackie Sato? They were both part of idol tag teams. They both developed into serious singles wrestlers. They both feuded with monster heels. Influence doesn't work like that. Wrestlers build on what came before them. Of course, Toyota was inspired by her mentor, Yamazaki. Did she go out there and surpass what Yamazaki did? By most measures she did except for folks who'd claim that Yamazaki was a better and smarter worker. Comparing Toyota to idol workers like Cutie and Takako is so wrong. It's as wrong as me pigeonholing Takako and Cutie as idol workers. It reminds me of that show where Fumi says Toyota appeals to the male fan and Yamada appeals to the wrestling fan and Malenko pulls him up on it. Manami Toyota was incredibly serious about wrestling. She isolated herself from her peers, refused to ever watch male wrestling, and from all accounts was on her own island during her heyday. She may have looked like an idol type, but she had the mentality of a Misawa. Yes, there's nothing new on the sun. You can look at those Toyota/Yamada matches where she really cut her teeth and say they're just an extension of the Chigusa/Lioness series, but there is something there that made Toyota a star. Ironically, it's probably the no-selling and continuous offense, so you know that pops a crowd. But there was something in the rhythm and flow. She wasn't the only one who worked that style and she wasn't the only worker from her era that was influential. They took Joshi to new heights. People may prefer 80s Joshi in this day and age, but I don't see how anyone can claim that Toyota wasn't advancing the style or how the 90s style as a whole doesn't have a major influence on the Joshi that came after it. People give Jaguar credit for the modern style, but not Toyota. What's with that? I stopped watching Joshi in the 00s, but even then you could look at Hyuga and see some Toyota in her. Someone needs to explain this major paradigm shift to me.

I see. Not to derail the thread, but I really wanted him to be a tricked out stylist like he was in the States, but then perhaps French heavyweight wrestling wasn't the place for that. When I see him work the French style, he comes across like an ex-boxer turned pro for some reason.

This was disappointing compared to the excitement of previous weeks. I was wrong about Vampiro coming to the ring to Shocker's theme as Shocker was still using Eminem here. Why did they bring Lizmark Jr to the fight? That was the first mistake. Ultimo & Rey looked cool as fuck on their way to the ring, but this wasn't a top drawer performance from them, and Shocker and Vampiro didn't have as much chemistry as they did in the mano a mano the week before. Panther was absolutely useless here even as a clog. I can't figure out if Vampiro's reckless offense is dangerous for his opponent or kind of cool because it's off-kilter. This feud should really be Shocker & Magica vs. GdI or a big time smoker and mirrors Vampiro apuesta match. Hopefully, the Aniversario show match is better than this.

Fair enough. Now, if only we could agree about Carpentier. I'm surprised that you guys like him so much.

Cheers. Never in a million years did I think NZ would end up being test match champions. It makes up for my childhood devastation of losing the 1992 World Cup semi. Finally, I can Rest in Peace (snort.) I am pretty confident that India are the best side in the world, but there are other mountains for NZ to climb. There are a couple of test match series we'd love to win. And, of course, that limited overs trophy.

The Catch stuff is interesting, but there's not enough of it to change the perception of Andre, IMO. It's fascinating to see what he was like in his rookie years, but forget about him being Andre for a second, how would you judge him relative to other French heavyweights? Did you see anything exceptional in him? I didn't expect him to be so technical or to be so versed in the style, but it's a really short period and most of it was in the halls. By the time he leaves France, he doesn't look anything like his rookie year. I don't know if was because of his disease or Parisian dinners, or a bit of both, but he was well on the way to being a monster even before he showed up in Montreal. People should watch the footage, for sure, but to me it's impact is like seeing young Baba more than holy shot, young Andre is one of the best European heavyweights ever.

It's almost impossible for people to copy Toyota directly as she was the strongest girl on the AJW roster with the most stamina and crazy flexibility. She deliberately created moves that were difficult for other wrestlers to copy because was driven to be the absolute best. I don't know how closely the Ice Ribbon girls she endorse resemble her style, but if there is still workrate Joshi, the go-go-go style still exists, and there are feminine ultra competitors with elaborate ring attire, then they have been influenced by Toyota in some way even if they're not aware of it. I'm guessing there are girls today who weren't even born during Manami's best years.

The upshot of that, to me, is that Flair would have wrestled Windham a bunch of times in 1990 instead of Luger. I just think it's unfair to pin expectations on a guy like Windham when there was no longer a territory system for the NWA champ to tour. I suppose he could have been a bigger star in early WCW but it's hard to envision much changing. All I can imagine is that he headlines a few more shows. Can we envision an alternate timeline where Windham is a big time player in the Monday Night Wars?

I don't think the Catch stuff adds a ton to Andre's case. In the 60s footage, he's in great shape and works like a traditional French heavyweight. Within a few years, he's heavier and working like an embryonic Andre the Giant. It's interesting stuff, but I don't think it changes the conversation about Andre.

Doesn't Toyota have a handpicked successor in Tsukasa Fujimoto? The idea that Manami Toyota has no influence on the modern scene seems pretty absurd given she only retired five years ago and still works in the business as Ice Ribbon's managing supervisor.

Did Windham really underachieve? I could understand that argument if the territory system never collapsed, but what was Windham supposed to be post 88? The NWA champ? The WCW champ? He was never going to be the NWA or WCW's answer to Hogan. He could have been a great worker for longer, but that's about his ceiling for me.

I've declared Ultimo the best rudo in CMLL, but here's a challenge for him: can he get anything out of Vampiro in a mano a mano? Vampiro comes out to a hip hop track instead of 'Welcome to the Jungle,' which I couldn't figure out at first, but then Shocker came into shot. That's the first time I've heard a second's theme used for a singles match. Vampiro can't seem to figure out what look he wants to rock. He's back to Biker Taker here. This is a great performance from Ultimo Guerrero, and a really good mano a mano. Ultimo works stiff with a mix of brawling and shoot submissions. He does a great job of making Vampiro's shit look good. There are a few hairy moments where Vampiro can't execute cleanly, but it's still an excellent bout. The crowd is red hot at the end. CMLL is on fire right now. It's summer and the Aniversario is around the corner. This shit is exciting.

This is kind of a strange match-up for Greco, so it's against a main eventer and heavyweight champion, but Greco is one of my all-time favorite workers so I'm happy if it draws more attention to his name.

In an alternate reality where Hansen leaves AJPW, invades New Japan, and has death matches with Onita, and Tenryu stays and wrestles the "Pillars", who has better matches?

I think the areas where Toyota excelled at selling were during the meaningless filler sections in Joshi matches where they stretch each other, selling the impact of a bump, and putting over the fatigue and the physical and emotional exhaustion of a match. I know some people are turned off by the screaming, but I'd rather listen to Manami shrieking than the workers talking to each other while they do submission holds. She sells bumps like an all-timer, IMO. She always likes like she's been wiped out. And she's a champion at putting over the overall effect a match has on the competitors. She was very good at putting over the fact that her matches were special and distinct from other girls' matches. I wouldn't call her a great actress. I find her a bit over the top when she tries to work heel or shine as the ace, but I don't really love that mid-90s period for AJW in general. I gravitated toward JWP for that period and early GAEA vs. Oz Academy matches. .

It's a large amount of footage, and sifting through it to find the good stuff, or simply catalogue it all, takes time. Especially if you're trying to watch the other matches on the shows as well. The reason we don't have a laundry list of every Casas match worth watching is because no one has dedicated the time towards making one. I personally have never had an experience watching weekly lucha in real time. I have either focused on a particular period of lucha I like, or scanned match-listings for match-ups that look interesting (and not just singles matches, for the record.) I have been taking a weekly approach with 00s lucha and the Tenay stuff, but my progress is slow. I will be quite happy when we get the full picture of Casas as a worker, but again, this is not how people watch Terry Funk matches (to the best of my knowledge.) It seems to me that most people just watch random Funk matches. Funk footage is scattershot. He didn't work in the same building week after week, or for the same promotion, but he benefits greatly from the mentality that "I can pop on any random Funk match and I know he's going to be entertaining." I know Funk's body of work was a sore spot in the last poll, and that his defenders have built up a catalogue of work and more of his matches have emerged since 2016, but I don't feel as though people have presented The Complete Works of Terry Funk either, so why can't we judge Casas the performer vs. Funk the performer without worrying about the matches? They're both similar performers, that's why the comparison was made. There's not a single thing that Terry Funk can do that Casas can't do and vice versa. The caveat I would add is that Funk did it everywhere, the world over, while Casas only shone in Mexico. I don't really agree with Matt's career point. I think you can clearly see the shifts in Casas' career from rudo to tecnico, and back again, and young guy to veteran, etc. Breaks doesn't have a huge career arc unless you factor in winning and losing belts, and his slow aging process. I do think that his act developed over time and that the Breaks we're familiar with is later period Breaks and very showy. I have some early 70s Breaks where he is clearly a heel but not doing the full blown Crybaby act with people throwing dummies at him. I have a feeling that period of Breaks came during the Big Daddy era where Crabtree was trying to shake things up. But it's all conjecture until we can get access to the footage.