Grimmas

Do you think if somebody's matches are getting over, that there is a small chance that they would get over themselves? Selling is only one part in getting the matches over. Of course. Selling can be an aspect of a match that helps get it over. Having over matches can help get somebody over. Thus selling can help someone get over. What am I missing? First, I would argue that up until recently having good matches or matches that are over wasn't very important in getting wrestlers over. Second, even now when having good matches is seemingly more important, I would say most fans would equate good matches with athleticism, hot moves, and near-falls. Selling would be distant in terms of importance. I will not argue that selling gets crowds more behind a wrestler during the match. But for that to even register, fans need to be attached to a wrestler prior to the match, in which case the criteria I listed earlier is far more important. There are plenty examples of guys selling well only to be met with muted or even hostile reactions. Would you disagree with my Ricky Morton hypothetical? If Ricky Morton was shitty at selling he would had not been as over or as good as a babyface. Do you disagree with that? Selling is not the be all and end all. If you are really good at selling, it helps a babyface get over. If they are shitty at selling or don't sell, that may be fine too. Selling, however, as you said helps get the match over. That does not mean the match is good or anything, just that the crowd gets into. If the crowd is consistently getting into a guy's matches, it helps to get them over. Thus, really good selling can really help a babyface. Why are you against this?

Do you think if somebody's matches are getting over, that there is a small chance that they would get over themselves? Selling is only one part in getting the matches over. Of course. Selling can be an aspect of a match that helps get it over. Having over matches can help get somebody over. Thus selling can help someone get over. What am I missing?

Do you think if somebody's matches are getting over, that there is a small chance that they would get over themselves?

Thanks. Pete was very helpful for his knowledge of the product. Otherwise Parv would put me on the spot and I would have to scramble to figure these things out! Two 60 minute matches? Thanks for the warning!

Huh? This isn't the case at all. It gets people invested in the match and builds heat (i.e. gets the match over) but I think wrestlers get over because of some combination of: winning/push, look, charisma, interviews, and (more recently) overall wrestling ability. The logical conclusion of your argument would be wrestlers who don't sell or sell well won't be over which is not true. You have your Goldbergs, Warriors, Sids, Undertakers, etc. No. Just because someone states that selling helps get someone over, does not mean that not selling does not get them over. That is horrible logic.

Already announced for Halifax is an old school New Japan style Elimination match between Japan and Canada! We may seem some more Choshu in Maple Leaf in the future, stay tuned.

Bret is a great babyface. He isn't a traditional babyface ala Martel or Steamboat. Bret got super over by selling and being a great tactical wrestler. He also had the largest baby face reaction of anyone I have ever heard at Canadian Stampede.

Posted today's TV and it was the start of one of my bigger angles coming up. I hope people enjoy. The tables are being set for something HUGE!

Maple Leaf Wrestling presents Wrestling Night in Canada August 7, 1983 at Community Arena in Sudbury, Ontario The opening video package of Wrestling Night in Canada opens the show featuring clips of: Greg Valentine, Wahoo McDaniel, Stephen Petipas, Jesse Ventura, Ivan Koloff, Leo Burke, Rocky Johnson and ends with a clip of Rick Martel being awarded the NWA Canadian Title. Billy Red Lyons and Jesse "The Body" Ventura are at the announce booth to welcome us to the show. Jesse hypes having "Dirty" Dick Murdoch on The Body Shop tonight and how he has a major announcement. Lyons tries to pry, but Jesse won't reveal. He looks quite proud with himself. They talk the main event of "The Russian Bear" Ivan Koloff vs Wahoo McDaniel talking about the encounter on television last week If Wahoo wants Greg "The Hammer" Valentine he needs to go through Koloff first. Last night in North Bay they had a wild brawl and we expect that to continue tonight. Finally the announcers toss it to Nick McMann who is backstage with Jack Tunney. Tunney has fined the Cubans for their vicious attack last week on TV. He announces a Toronto Street Fight set for Maple Leaf Gardens on August 30th between Rocky Johnson and Stephen Petipas versus The Cubans. Commercial #1 1. Lord Littlebrook vs Tiger Jackson In a fast paced contest Tiger beats Littlebrook The announcers talk about Tiger getting a rematch with Little Tokyo for the title at Maple Leaf Gardens on August 30th. Tiger will be looking for revenge after Tokyo used salt to retain the title last time. Winner - Tiger Jackson @ 8:15 Commercial #2 2. Super Russian w/ Don Carson vs Angelo Mosca Jr. Super Russian wins in a match where Mosca gets in no offence. Winner - Super Russian @ 2:00 After the match Alexis Smirnoff comes to ringside and approaches Don Carson. He starts yelling and screaming at him until Super Russian interrupts. They have a stare down, as we go to commercial. Commercial #3 Back from commercial and we are in the back with Nick McMann who is with Alexis Smirnoff. Smirnoff was the tag team partner of Ivan Koloff and entered Maple Leaf Wrestling to win the NWA Tag Team Titles. He then goes to All Japan Pro-Wrestling on tour and when he comes back Koloff is with this bum Don Carson and he has a new partner in Super Russian? Smirnoff does not stand for this. A music video of Rick Martel is played set to the song "Wanna Be Startin' Something" by Michael Jackson. It shows clips of him training and beating Slaughter and Ric Flair. Commercial #4 It's time for The Body Shop with Jesse Ventura. Ventura is backed up by Masked Samurai, per usual. He opens the show talking about how Mr. Saito will be winning the NWA Canadian Title from Rick Martel on August 30th in Toronto. He then gets really excited talking about this big news and how great his guest is. He ran down the credentials of Dick Murdoch and then introduced him. "Dirty" Dick Murdoch is welcomed to The Body Shop. Jesse acts all friendly, but Dick looks a little stand offish. Dick says he is here, because this is where the competition is. Jesse gets mad, because he thought they had a deal. He pulls a contract out and expected Dick to sign it. It turns out, Ventura thought Dick Murdoch would be his new charge. Dick rips up the contract and then walks away as Jesse is pissed. Commercial #5 3. Mr. Saito vs Bob Marcus Saito destroys Marcus as Ventura rants about Dick Murdoch and how he will ruin him for embarrassing him. Winner - Mr. Saito @ 3:51 Commercial #6 4. "The Russian Bear" Ivan Koloff w/ Don Carson vs Wahoo McDaniel These two wage war in a vicious brawl. The Super Russian comes to ringside. As the match continues Carson distracts the referee as Super Russian tries to interfere. However he is stopped by Alexis Smirnoff who runs in. Koloff and Super Russian back off causing a countout, leaving Smirnoff and Wahoo alone. They have some words as we go to commercial. Winner - Wahoo McDaniel via countout @ 12:25 Commercial #7 Back from commercial we are at the announcers booth with Lyons & Ventura. They talk about the surprising actions of Smirnoff. Jesse vows to have Alexis Smirnoff on The Body Shop next week. Ventura then reveals another surprise, next week here on Wrestling Night in Canada he will debut Ishi-Gunn from New Japan. Their leader Riki Choshu will take on Jerry Brisco, here next week. Finally they hype the upcoming events: August 8th in Timmins, Ontario features Rick Martel vs Ric Flair for the NWA Canadian Title August 9th in Sault Ste Marie, Ontario features Wahoo McDaniel & Tiger Conway vs Greg Valentine & Ivan Koloff August 13th in Berwick, New Brunswick features Mr. Saito vs Leo Burke Dark Matches: Little Tokyo pinned Cowboy Lang @ 9:21 Jerry Brisco, Rocky Johnson & Stephen Petipas def. Cuban Assassin, Chicky Starr & Bobby Bass @ 12:16 Dick Murdoch and Mr. Saito go to a 30 minute draw Maple Leaf Wrestling will return to Sudbury on September 11th

Exactly what is happening here. I like Jesse a lot as a character, in ring, he was getting close to retirement anyway.

Ugh, I've had a subscription on and off for years, but never posted at on the board for reasons like that. DC SNIPER comes to mind as obnoxious troll gimmick poster, weirdos like Ed from San Antonio and r*v3rt coming into countless topics to do nothing, but argue/troll about nonsense like late slips. Isn't Ed from San Antonio a big friend of Alvarez or helps organize parties for board members or something? Besides the fact the board is shit and should be cleaned up I have to wonder what joy there is in being a troll gimmick poster. There is better things to do with your time.

My pick is Backlund. Young babyface on the undercard, made WWF Champion and had 6 year run. Disappears for 10 years, returns as old man babyface doing nothing. A year later turns heel, wins WWF Title again for one night. Has another year as a heel, then turns into a heel manager for a bit. Then has a run as a Presidential candidate character. Utterly bizarre.

There's a lot going on here. Let me ask a few questions, the first of which may have been covered before. What makes for a good heel then? What about Tito Santana, someone who lived and breathed his shine-heat-comeback structure, who can talk about it very distinctly now and the reasons behind it, who was frustrated when facing heels who wanted to wrestle him evenly in the shine and not cheat to take the advantage to start the heat. Wouldn't he understand his role so well on the other side of the coin? Do we have reason to believe that? Also, I still want to know what elements of Martel's work as a heel weren't up to snuff, the specifics? I think it's worth looking at with that in mind. That's different than saying "He did these things well. Those things were not important as a heel." I want to know what he DIDN'T do well as a heel. I'm not at all against Martel being considered a better babyface than Steamboat either, btw. You've just raised general process points that are interesting to me. Tito is great for sure as a babyface. Never being a heel does not hurt or help him. He may had been a great heel, but we don't have that. We know he's a great face and he will do well on my list. I haven't watched much Martel as a heel in a while. I don't remember seeing very good matches. I think part of Martel's problems as a heel stem from not having the right offense? I don't know, I would need to watch more. Has anybody watched Model era stuff in a while and can point out why he was so much worse as a heel than a face?

Minis are great wrestlers who have entertaining matches. To not use them, is to be like Vince and not use luchadores in the 90s. As for Ventura, who says he is done? Ventura is my top manager and top heel colour man, as well as the host of The Body Shop. Look for his in ring time to be limited, but not for Ventura to go anywhere.

My argument is that Martel is so great at selling, gaining sympathy, fiery comebacks, flashy offense, making everything look cool and his look that as a total package he trumps everyone else. He has the great matches to boot. Martel is the perfect babyface. Yes he had a run where he was just ok, where he was a heel. All of those great things do not translate well as a heel. Here is the thing with comparing him to Steamboat. Line for line, he was a better babyface. Since Steamboat was never a heel, by default Martel was a better heel too. I'm really thinking I am putting Martel above Steamboat. Of course nothing is final, but at this moment Martel is the top babyface for me. On the contrary to that I don't know how I could put Martel above Kobashi or Mysterio, so I may need to do some rethinking here.

Not when the person is a naturally awesome babyface. Sure maybe try it, but after it didn't work sticking with it for 5 years is horrible booking.

I'm all about innovation. I don't really want to hold bad booking against anyone if i can avoid it.

The problem is, he is not a heel. No matter how many opportunities he got, he was not a heel. It's horrible booking. Martel was great as a babyface from the late 70's till he turned heel in 89. That is a ten year run as a great worker. Then he turns heel, is ok until he gets a second babyface run in 98 where he is awesome again until his career ending. There is no point where Martel is not awesome as a babyface. It's just shitty booking that made that part of his career just ok. I find it hard to punish Martel for that. As for Flair, I'm not going to say he sucks because he was the worst wrestler in the world in 2005. He's old and broken down. Now I will not use this stuff as a negative, but I am more than ok to use the fact Lawler, Funk, etc.. were great with horrible booking or being old as positives for them.

I would think more the Flair series of matches propping Steamboat. Martel was just ill-fated as a heel. I'm not holding that against him, but I am not sure if others are. Rey as a heel sucked too. We never really got Steamboat or Tito as heels. I don't know if I want to use bad booking as a case against somebody.

On the last Pro-Wrestling Super Show and the upcoming Excite Series we talked greatest babyface ever. I like Rick Martel, but there are others like Ricky Steamboat, Tito Santana, Rey Mysterio and Kenta Kobashi who are right there too. Two questions, which is the best babyface of all-time and secondly where do they rank next to the other great babyfaces? Parv made the point that Martel might be the better babyface, but Steamboat will be ranked ahead of him. What do you folks think?

Ok, if the question is what songs to listen to in the car, that is different than best theme song. On that criteria, Raven's "Come Out and Play", Hogan's "Voodoo Child", Eye of the Tiger would be the top three.

Guy 10 years into retirement takes multiple insane bumps and chairshots without selling a thing (I know most of them were probably tricks, but still). And despite all the death spots, I feel no hate. Vampiro hates Pentagón Jr and the first thing he does is... hit him? Nooo, run into the stairs. Yeah he's being chair-shot to death but he's not selling it so who cares. Yeah he's dropped into thumbtacks but he inmediately gets up so who cares. I really thought I wouldn't ever see a more stupid match than Chyna-Ivory, but this is worse. He rips Pentagón's mask, he's really close to inflicting him the ultimate humiliation... and then nothing happens. No more mask-ripping. Another stupid bump. Post-match angle that makes Viridian City's gym leader reveal look like a storytelling masterpiece, Russo booking at its best. Basically, Vampiro is testing Pentagón Jr. (or at least in Pentagón's mind because he doesn't seem to know who his master is) during all the show but doesn't say a word just because SWERVE. Hmm... the match actually hints at the post match angle. All those things were not supposed to be hate, but a test. He was trying to make Pentagon Jr more evil, not destroy him. It's not the best thing ever or anything, but saying there is no hate in the match when the post match angle shows why is silly.

Maple Leaf Wrestling August 6, 1983 at Memorial Gardens in North Bay, Ontario 1. Ben Bassarab and Masa Fuchi fought to a time limit draw @ 15:00. 2. "Outlaw" Joel Deaton pinned Nick DeCarlo with a big boot @ 4:06 3. Tiger Conway Jr. pinned Paul Christy with a flying headbutt @ 7:51. 4. Ivan Koloff & Greg Valentine w/ Don Carson def. Wahoo McDaniel & Buzz Tyler when Valentine pinned Tyler after using brass knuckles @ 16:24. Intermission: Maple Leaf Wrestling will return to North Bay on September 9th and will feature a rematch between Wahoo McDanieil & Buzz Tyler vs Ivan Koloff & Greg Valentine in a North Bay Street Fight. 5. Dick Murdoch pinned Masked Samurai @ 9:31. 6. Chicky Starr & Bobby Bass def. Rocky Johnson & Stephen Petipas after interference from Cuban Assassin @ 12:21. 7. Leo Burke pinned Cuban Assassin with the leg lariat @ 11:00. 8. Rick Martel & Tony Garea def. Jesse Ventura & Mr. Saito when Martle made Ventura submit to the Boston Crab @ 18:41.

The Vampiro-Pentagon Jr much was inanely good for having Vampiro involved in it. The post match angle is fine within the context of lucha underground. To make sure Pentagon Jr is evil enough he had to test him in the ring and now Pentagon Jr is ready for whatever evil plans Vampiro has in season 2.

Fabulous Rougeau Brothers theme is the greatest theme ever that isn't about Mounties.