Grimmas

The greatest spot in wrestling history.. not sure the match

Lucha talk has put up a lucha MOTY playlist for everybody to enjoy! https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIsRqe-vJk_tfZ60hGI9H_HOFhnwe7-Cn

It also doesn't help if you keep telling someone that they are just angry or upset, when they are not. That does nothing but bring everything down.

So lucha should be ignored and is inferior to puro and american wrestling?

The narratives have to change, because they are wrong.

WTF? History of America is not made up by me, there is a clear history and narrative. Same with history and narratives of everything. Doesn't matter if I go around and say Nirvana didn't change the boring music industry, that is the history and narrative. I, as an individual, alone can not change that. I'm sure you're familiar with history is written by the victors. As you say in your own post, history and narrative are the same thing. Narratives are controlled by people, and as such, history is controlled by individuals, not necessarily pure fact. You can't change the narratives of the individuals that control history, or lucha coverage in this instance. I can? I can try. I can talk about lucha, review lucha, etc... I don't have the power to change what the narratives are. I can try, but I only have 333 twitter followers and about 500 people listening to my podcast. Not nearly enough people to make that kind of change. To the majority of online wrestling fans, puro is the best form of wrestling and lucha is not worth their time.

This is legitimately one of my favourite matches ever. I think I went about **** 1/4, but that doesn't take into account how fun it is to see Super Porky go MMA.

You learned to love Dory. You set out to watch all the great AJPW. How is this any different? I watched the stuff and felt compelled for whatever reason to continue rather than being put off. Dory was part of my wider project to deep dive into the 70s, I also looked at Jack Brisco, Harley Race, Giant Baba, The Destroyer, and others. Through it all, I gained a love of 70s AJPW and of the old NWA style. Plenty of people dismiss that. It's longer form, it's slower in parts. I get "Dory is boring" jokes as par for the course. I don't really mind. I think the high end stuff speaks for itself, and all my reviews are there if anyone else wants to check that stuff out for themselves. People kinda roll their eyes when I point them towards a 45-minute tag from 1977 ... something like Funks vs. Jumbo / Baba. Masterpiece of the style, textbook excellent wrestling in my view. Some people would rather watch five-minute Earthquake matches or the latest RAW. I get that, it's all cool. During GWE, people were flat out saying stuff like Jumbo sucks, I cared because I thought it was important that someone with a career like that got his due. He fell from #1 in 2006 to #11 in 2016, which suggests that en masse people valued 70s AJPW less than they did ten years ago. I was against that because I didn't think GWE should be less a reflection of values and more a reflection of who had the greatest career with the most great matches in it. Now GWE is over it doesn't matter, there are no stakes. I don't care in the slightest who does and doesn't watch 70s AJPW. If you find Jumbo boring, cool. If you think he sucks, fine. It doesn't matter. And that's what I've been telling you since the start of this thread. It doesn't matter if I think lucha sucks or if you think 70s AJPW sucks. I'm not gonna try to make you watch Dory matches to try to change your mind. I encourage people to discuss matches and review them. Like I said, individuals don't matter. It's the overall history and narratives. If you don't have time for lucha, that's cool. If you want to talk about the overall history of wrestling, great matches, great workers, and exclude lucha that's an issue.

WTF? History of America is not made up by me, there is a clear history and narrative. Same with history and narratives of everything. Doesn't matter if I go around and say Nirvana didn't change the boring music industry, that is the history and narrative. I, as an individual, alone can not change that.

And Steven might not be OK with that particular Person B as you described, but I am, so long as they're open to the idea that they may be missing something. I'm ok with the individual doing that. I'm not ok with wrestling history and narratives doing that.

I think another issue is lucha is best viewed weekly, not as big events or select matches. That goes against the way a lot of people watch wrestling.

Absolutely this. There is so much wrestling out there that I want to watch because I know I'll enjoy it but can't find the time. I'm not going to be spending the time I do have watching something I don't like much in the vein hope it'll eventually get easier. Shit, people really only watch the art they like and never try to expand into new areas?

You learned to love Dory. You set out to watch all the great AJPW. How is this any different?

Yeah. I can't believe I watched that shitty first season of Babylon 5, which helped me set up the best 2-3 seasons of TV ever later on. or that country I sat through which I didn't like at first, that helped me learn and really start to love it. etc....

It's almost like watching select matches doesn't allow you to fairly evaluate wrestling.

Long feud, lots of hate. It's been a while since I watched it, but I think El Dandy faked being low blowed. Low blows are DQ's, so referee saw El Dandy selling getting the low blow and DQ'ed Satanico. It's epic justice, since Satanico faked low blows for wins very often.

I think what is missing from your viewing is context.

A really good **** contest with Ultimo Guerrero leading the way. One blow away spot is UG catching Caristico off a dive and power bombing him on the floor. All falls get time and it builds to a hot end.

It was last night.

Those were really good. Cavenario had a sneaky really good year. I've watched a bit of this week's lucha and damn was Guerrero Maya Jr/Soberano Jr/Titan vs Dragon Rojo Jr/Luciferno/Polvora a damn awesome match, probably go *** 1/2. Polvora/Dragon Rojo are really a great unit and had some great tandem offence. Soberano Jr and Titan are just nuts and so smooth. Some of the spots in this one where out of this world. Guerrero Maya jr was sloppy for some reason. Caristico vs Ultimo Guerrero was a great match as well. Went ****. UG was in top notch form, and Caristico hit everything very well. The catch by UG on the outside into a power bomb was ridiculous. UG has had a great run this year.

Actually great point, lucha is incredibly diverse. There is brawling, spotfests, techinical matches, high end drama, etc... There is lucha for every type of wrestling fan. That is why I found it so bizarre when Parv said Negro Casas wasn't a luchador. What the fuck is lucha libre then?

I don't like Flair. I think he's over rated. I had him #10 on my list.

Last year I did my 100 best matches ever, here are the 90s matches on that list. It's probably changed in the last year, but here we go: 55 Shinya Hashimoto vs Genichiro Tenryu (NJPW, 8/1/98) 54 Orient Express vs Rockers (WWF, 1/19/91) 53 Rey Mysterio Jr. vs Ultimo Dragon (WCW, 11/24/96) 52 El Hijo del Santo & Rey Misterio Jr. & La Parka & Octagon vs Pentagon & Blue Panther & Fuerza Guerrera & Psicosis (AAA, 6/18/95) 51 Steve Williams vs Mitsuharu Misawa (7/28/94) 50 Midnight Express vs Rock'n'Roll Express (NWA, 2/25/90) 49 El Dandy vs Black Warrior (CMLL, 11/2/96) 48 Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Koashi (AJPW, 12/3/93) 47 Shinjiro Ohtani vs Jushin Liger (NJPW, 2/9/97) 46 Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Koashi (AJPW, 5/21/94) 45 Toshiyo Yamada & Manami Toyota vs Dynamite Kansai & Maumi Ozaki (AJW, 11/26/92) 44 Vader vs Dustin Rhodes (WCW, 11/16/94) 43 Rick Rude vs Ricky Steamboat (WCW, 6/20/92) 42 Lex Luger vs Ric Flair (NWA, 2/25/90) 41 Bret Hart vs Mr. Perfect (WWF, 6/13/93) 40 Akira Taue vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW, 3/21/95) 39 Bret Hart vs Undertaker (WWF, 9/20/97) 38 Shawn Michaels vs Undertaker (WWF, 10/5/97) 37 Royal Rumble (WWF, 1/19/92) 36 Jushin Liger vs Naoki Sano (NJPW, 1/31/90) 35 El Dandy vs Angel Azteca (EMLL, 6/1/90) 34 Dude Love vs Steve Austin (WWF, 5/31/98) 33 Eddie Guerrero vs Rey Mysterio Jr. (WCW, 10/26/97) 32 War Games (WCW, 9/18/94) 31 Jushin Liger vs Great Sasuke (NJPW, 4/16/94) 30 Rey Mysterio Jr. vs Psicosis (WCW, 7/7/96) 29 Dusin Rhodes & Ricky Steamboat vs Enforcers (WCW, 11/19/91) 28 Jumbo & Taue & Fuchi vs Misawa & Kawada & Kobashi (AJPW, 4/20/91) 27 Atsushi Onita vs Terry Funk (FMW, 5/5/93) 26 Randy Savage vs Ric Flair (WWF, 4/5/92) 25 Midnight Express vs Southern Boys (WCW, 7/7/90) 24 Bret Hart vs 1-2-3 Kid (WWF, 7/1/94) 23 El Hijo del Santo vs Negro Casas (CMLL, 9/19/97) 22 10 Man Tag (M-Pro, 10/10/96) 21 Bret Hart vs Diesell (WWF, 11/19/95) 20 Jumbo Tsuruta vs Misawa (AJPW, 6/8/90) 19 Pirata Morgan vs Satanico (AAA, 11/26/93) 18 Cibernetico (CMLL, 4/18/97) 17 Megumi Kudo vs Combat Toyoda (FMW, 5/5/96) 16 Kobashi & Kikuchi vs Kroffatt & Furnas (AJPW, 5/25/91) 15 Aja Kong vs Bull Nakano (AJW, 11/14/90) 14 Randy Savage vs Ultimate Warrior (WWF, 3/24/91) 13 Akira Taue vs Misawa (AJPW, 4/15/95) 12 El Dandy vs El Satanico (EMLL, 12/14/90) 11 War Games (WCW, 5/17/92) 10 Eddie Guerrero & Love Machine vs El Hijo del Santo 7 Octagon (AAA, 11/6/94) 9 Jumbo vs Misawa (AJPW, 9/1/90) 8 Kobashi vs Hansen (AJPW, 7/29/93) 7 Hansen vs Kawada (AJPW, 2/28/93) 6 Misawa vs Kawada (APW, 6/3/94) 5 Bret Hart vs Steve Austin (WWF, 3/23/97) 4 Bret vs Owen (3/20/94) 3 Misawa & Akiyama vs Taue & Kawada (12/6/96) 2 Bret Hart vs Steve Austin (WWF, 11/17/96) 1 Akira Hokuto vs Shinobu Kandori (4/2/93)

That's certainly an interpretation.

Yep.That's it. You got me. Thanks for pointing it out, I'm clearly just trying to protect the narrative in my head above all reason. EDIT: Forgot to point out, it's only because of racism towards Mexicans. Can't miss that, since I hate white people say much.