El-P

To introduce Ken Shamrock. That was basically it.

To submit is basically to say "I quit". Tapping out, which is a gesture that only appeared, or at least got popular, in the late 90's with Ken Shamrock getting in the WWF, doesn't mean anything other than "I quit". Before that, the guys caught in a submission hold (like the Sharpshooter or the Figure Four) would either signal to the referee that they were submitting, hence "quitting", or pass out, hence physically "quitting". The gimmick matches were not worked the same way : one was usually meaning "no pinfall, only a submission (implied hold because it's the most simple way to attain that goal) can end the match" while the other had to have the oral signal of quitting, heard true a live mic, but in the end this is exactly the same thing in term of meaning. So yes, there's a difference in semantic only. And in term of pro-wrestling, in execution of the gimmick (which I why I said I could understand nitpicking with the Austin vs Bret match to some extent, although like it's been said, it doesn't really matter, the match is a classic that goes beyond the gimmick and reducing it to the maybe non-conform execution of said gimmick is ridiculous)

First time I saw Matanza without the hood. I wouldn't have pictured him as a semi-fat Hawaiian amateur wrestler. Mythbuster. The match was really good though. Cobb definitely belongs in NJ, but I enjoy him as Matanza better, as he's not the most charismatic guy ever and he doesn't look super menacing. Ishii, well, is Ishii no matter who he faces. The journey of this guy is pretty amazing, from random WAR rookie guy to a legit great worker in his later day as a NJ mainstay.

Favourite announcing of the week-end.

If you add to PCO vs WALTER : Ellsworth vs Riddle, Starr vs Quackenbuch, the Clusterfuck and Sasuke vs Janela, Sprink Break 2 was easily the best and most insane show of the week-end. The invisible man deal was hilarious. Ellsworth was a much better worker than Nick Gage, Starr is my new favourite hairy worker. And Sasuke is still fucking insane. The main-event was a beautiful, completely organic, insane, ridiculous, fucked-up old-school ECW/FMW style clusterfuck. Those bumps these two took, Sasuke being 48 or something, warmed the heart of this old-school garbage match fan. This was indie sleaze at its best to me.

The Saoudi Cup ?

To me it's a matter of poor semantics only. Turn "submission" into "I quit" with the same match move per move, and Austin vs Hart doesn't have the issue of "well, they really don't try to submit each other" that can be a valid criticism because of the gimmick name only. But as it is, the match still is a classic to me.

"I quit match" stipulation don't demand submission matwork. The greatest I Quit match, and one of the very few match I would rate 5 stars, is Magnum TA vs Tully Blanchard.

Holy shit !

WHAT THE FUCK DID I JUST WATCH ? It's 2018 and a 50 years old Quebecer Pierre/jean Pierre Lafitte just had a top 5 match of the week-end. There's too much sheer insanity in this to go into details, but it was not all about that either, as it told a really cool story with WALTER the young monster treating PCO with a patronizing arrogance, only for the old Quebec fuck to make a TerryFunkesque comeback, execute some ridiculous butt-ugly yet super impressive spots, while doing a Kobashi tribute (both in choping WALTER down to size and sporting a... purple/black chest). Where has Pierre Carl Oulette been all these years ? This has to be one of the all-time post-50 years old performance ever. Great match. (and for the old Jean Pierre Lafitte fan that I am, cool as shit, I legit marked out several times during this)

Honestly, that was the part I liked the least and could have done without. Which is probably why also I have Almas vs Black above this one (nitpicking of course at this level).

The old garbage/ECW fan in me could have enjoyed that, but really it was Gage getting thrown through a bunch of tables while looking stiff as a rod and making a comeback from nowhere and winning after only one table spot. So yeah, nothing match, and Nick Gage is a complete waste of my time. No charisma (yeah, he does look a bit like Ron Pearlman, so what ?), shitty work. Next.

WHAT THE FUCK DID I JUST WATCH ? It's 2018 and a 50 years old Quebecer Pierre/jean Pierre Lafitte just had a top 5 match of the week-end. There's too much sheer insanity in this to go into details, but it was not all about that either, as it told a really cool story with WALTER the young monster treating PCO with a patronizing arrogance, only for the old Quebec fuck to make a TerryFunkesque comeback, execute some ridiculous butt-ugly yet super impressive spots, while doing a Kobashi tribute (both in choping WALTER down to size and sporting a... purple/black chest). Where has Pierre Carl Oulette been all these years ? This has to be one of the all-time post-50 years old performance ever. Great match. (and for the old Jean Pierre Lafitte fan that I am, cool as shit, I legit marked out several times during this)

Yeah, but you also love Spike Dudley. (best booked I dunno, maybe, but it was pretty fucking poor in term of in-ring work with only the main event being quite good)

And in my case, the "Pète-lui la gueule !" (Fuck him up!) call by Christophe Agius was a highlight of the show.

This. That being said, Nicholas was less a disapointment than Big Cass would have been... And it will end up being a reference for future gags and ironic chants, so I guess there's that.

... on the biggest show on the year in a match that was build toward "who is gonna be the surprise partner of Braun ?". WCW level stuff, just like Roman's promo on RAW.

The thread was derived from me saying the ladder match at Takeover was the most overrated 5 stars match from Meltz canon.

This was my original thought the first time around. I thought it was a great way to introduce newer fans to Japanese pro-wrestling and that it wasn't that great. I re-watched it a month ago and I totally lost it. I thought it was unbelievable. That's also exactly what I thought when I watched it back then. It was also the first time I saw Joe, so probably not the best introduction. Now that I'm familiar through years of TNA, I wonder if my perception would be different too... Don't give me the urge to go through these "5 stars" matches for the sake of it...

From what I've seen of Gage, he's a complete nothing worker, *at best* (ok, he's just bad and he doesn't even have anything look-wise apart from being ugly), so that's not exactly setting my world on fire. Style Battle was everything indieriffic about indie wrestling. Worst show of the week-end thus far although Riddle is always fun (good match vs Anthony Henry). There was no one in the crowd either, which seems fitting.

I forgot that one got 5 stars. Yeah, totally WTF choice even back then. Like I said in the original thread from which this one is derived, the ladder match at Takeover appears to me as the most overrated 5 stars Meltz match ever, since to me it was complete junk. Haven't rewatch the Tiger vs Dyno match in forever. It's overrated, but it's still good. I'm sure some indy clusterfucks that got the 5 stars treatment are up there.

This one won't age well. Not that it was any good or even fun last week (the "We want Nicholas" chants during Roman vs Lesnar were), but in the grand scheme of things, this is Judy Bagwell level of stupid. Again, I think it gets a pass, somehwat (as in "it was a cute Mania Momenttm"), because it's WWE. Same stuff happening on Nitro in 1999, it would be a complete laughing stock and a token "WCW sucked" moment.

Junk ? I just can't stand these matches were there isn't even an effort to make you think the guys are trying to win. Or where every damn overcomplicated spot is carefully set-up. Give me the Eliminators vs Sabu & RVD, it was sloppy as fuck but you were getting the feeling it actually was complete chaos with people doing completely stupid shit. This was the self-conscious epic of MITB stuntfest. Plus I didn't get the feeling there was any reason for these guys to fuck up each other like they did, which is another reason it felt useless. I thought it was the worst way to showcase Ricochet's debut. He was immediately turned into a Jeff Hardy-like worker. Well, whatever, this match really put me in a bad mood at the beginning of the NXT show. Can't think a of recent match I hated more.

It was never the plan if you believe Bruce Prichard. The original plan for Mania was Micheals vs Jannetty, but Jannetty was fired just after the Rumble.

That ladder match is officially the most overrated match ever in the Meltz canon then. To me it was the usual, MITB-style useless stuntfest garbage. And then it's odd Almas vs Black didn't get the 5*stars treatment then. Not that I care one bit, but considering Meltz tastes, I don't see how Gargano vs Ciampa was that much better (I actually like Almas vs Black more as a pure pro-wrestling match without WWE drama, which the Gargano match had, only done perfectly so it didn't matter).