El-P

I'm an old Flair fan. I had him #20 on my GWE list. And I do agree with some if these points. The "wrong leg", yeah, that one is just unforgivable, honestly. Kayfabe-wise, Flair is kind of a dumb as fuck worker who only got by cheating. Un-kayfabe-wise, Flair is a goofy go-go-go worker who did lot of stuff who popped the crowds big time. I'd live happily not watching another Flair match ever at this point, but I have loved watching him for a long time. Beating on a dead horse though. Flair is Walking Dead case. Now : his daughter.

90's NJ heavies have been pimped for ever at this point. Then kinda forgotten about again, because the 80's got more in vogue. The idea that they were better than the AJ ones is… incongruous to say the least (and I'm a fan of 90's NJ heavies). But at this rate, what the hell. (damn, puro is taking over this thread. Poor lucha. Poor, poor lucha) (one should never write "puro" anyway. "lucha" is acceptable) ("puro-lucha" anyone ?)

Are you serious ? People were criticizing headdropping *as it was happening*.

Than they weren't active doesn't mean they weren't influenced though. This fact also explain results like Daniel Bryan getting so high BTW (if you look at the top votes for instance).

KC Timeline with Tully Blanchard is a winner. The fact Tully speaks like a Texas version of Sean Connery in "Indiana Jones and the Lost Crusade" maybe part of why it's so fun to listen to. The idea that old Tully is watching matches of himself on his Ipad in his bed and laughs his ass off at the fact he couldn't get Bob Armstrong out of his feet is pretty cool.

Who is the "typical hardcore fan" ? For year I had talked about trends (about Lawler for instance, but not only) only to be derided and even insulted at times, because there couldn't be any kind of influence and groupthink at play in the DVDVR projects (because all the people taking part in these were absolutely imune to any kind of influence whatsoever, they just watched the matches and all agreed (this always comes up when talked about some unseen "classic" BTW, the fact that "all the people who watched it agreed it was great", which is always suspect to me and plays a part into building a narrative that already goes beyond the simple match, which may or may not be great)), but these days it basically all comes down to "typical hardcore fans are Meltzer sheeps" when it comes to "bad opinions". So, there are trends and groupthink, but only on the "other side of the fence". Interesting. (I do agree about MPro though, I was thinking about that too. Much like my beloved ARSION had a clear lucha influence too, if only by Gran Apache and his daughters working over there regularly)

I admit, Fist of the North Star does sound homo-erotic. (Akira is the most overrated piece of anime I've seen BTW. I just wanted to point out that fact.)

ORIENTAL FETICHISM !!!!! "Smoke week everyday"

Raven vs Sean Waltman So, Jeff Hardy doens't show up. Thank God for drugs ! So instead of having to suffer through another abomination of a match, we get fucking 6-Pac instead and the best Raven showcase in more than a year ! Fat Raven hasn't looked very good for a long time, after an excellent first stint in TNA. No issue between the two, but it's kinda like a late 90's dream match of sorts. Waltman is all fired up and make Raven bleed immediately by rubbing his forehead in a cage segment. This is a House of Fun match, so it's all gimmicked up, ECW style, with not that much long term selling but heavy on garbage shots, bleeding buckets and keeping the pace relatively fast. Raven does beats the shit out of Waltman including a severe Singapore cane lashing, while asking the Kid to submit. Quite beautiful in its ECWness. Some neat transition, although Raven's execution is never the smoothest, but the ideas are there. Waltman looks as good as ever, almost, and this is quite the intense affair for a match thrown at the last moment. Some insane table spots which don't amount to much, but this is clearly leading toward chaos and shock and to a beautiful and brutal finish. Raven's facials and body language are as good as ever. Very good/excellent brawl. And the match of the PV too (Jarrett vs AJ Style wasn't that good, as Jarrett at this point is a lost cause to go beyond "solid at very best").

The more I read this thread, the more absurd it gets. So, pro-wrestling fans getting tired of US wrestling in the 90's got hooked on puroresu because of its "hypermasculinity" ? Like, Jushin Liger vs Great Sasuke and shit (don't even argue, the J-Cup was the gate for 90% of us) ? And the fact joshi was huge at the time, a validation of fandom through "hypermasculinity" too ? I think some people have major insecurity issues around there. Like, huge ones. I remember when I was reading the old DVDVR issues (the really old ones), which was a big part of me getting onto japanese stuff, among other things, in the late 90's, it was all about the absurdity of it all. Buckets of blood, kicks in the face, bitchy heeling, goofy clowing, cool masks, lumpy heavyweights and whatnot. I do think that some people take pro-wrestling way too fucking seriously nowadays. Which is too bad, because now is less the time than ever for this.

Honest question : why do you care ? Seriously ? What the fuck does that mean anyway ? Nothing. Unless you value other people's taste and opinion more than your own enjoyment of watching and pleasure you may take out of writing about the stuff you love. It's like bitching against a year-end list from Pitchfork (or NME or whatever). What is the point ? It has 0 value anyway. Only good way to act out is to write about the stuff you love, the best way possible, and if some people watch it and love it too (or even get interested) thanks to your writing, then it's cool (although you don't even have to know about it). That's about it.

Not sure I'd agree with the supposed negative cultural stereotype about Lucha though. As I said, I do think Lucha is actually the coolest form of pro-wrestling in pop culture because of it's very strong aesthetics. Again, there was (still is ?) a lucha bar in Paris,despite lucha not being showed on TV, ever, Puscifer's last album had a lucha theme. Maybe the in the very japanese oriented gamers community do you get more references to Japanese pro-wrestling (if at all), but I wouldn't be too sure about that. I never see any reference to puro anywhere. So, I do think there's an inherent "coolness" of lucha libre, at least from the outside, because it's visually pleasing while good ol' pro-wrestling still remains cheesy as shit. Hulk Hogan vs El Santo, whose picture do you really want in a cool urban spot ?

"Old man grapplelucha", as a mere concept, sounds quite awesome actually.

Same for me, watched the most big stuff lucha for the 2006 GWE poll. And most of what was pimped as great, I indeed found terrific. But it was a time where you couldn't yet get entire TV seasons for zilch like today, and I wouldn't spend a dime on wrestling anymore. There was always something else I really wanted to watch instead and when torrents appeared, it was easier getting your hands on shitload of Mid-south or Memphis TV seasons, stuff I was more curious about. I've been saying I'd watch WWC for ever now. Downloaded and deleted my stack a dozen times. You only got that much time and you get burned out and you have your odd little priorities (like watching old TNA). At some point, you've just gotta choose. Like I've been saying since the beginning : it's mostly contextual. In an odd way, the pro-wrestling TV that got me back watching as it happens and really have fun with it, first time since the very early 00's with ARSION, is Lucha Underground. Yeah, not exactly "lucha libre", but still. If I had to cut down to only one show to watch at this point, that would be it. Back to binge watching that S3 next week BTW. Can't wait.

Shoot-style is nazi wrestling. Lol.

Damn, in France I'd call you a "centriste".

With a guy dressed as a Tiger doing lucha spots. Kinda. Pro-wrestling is ridiculous. It sure is! And that's why it's great. Let's not kid ourselves. Last match I've enjoyed a lot (thought it was legit great actually) is an AJ Styles vs Abyss cage match from TNA 2005. Abyss. In my mind, a truck-driver (actually, a lawyer in kayfabe) with an S&M fetish badly playing a monster.

I know. UWF 1.0 still has lots of pro-style stuff like dropkicks and shit, only UWF 2.0 really found the way.

With a guy dressed as a Tiger doing lucha spots. Kinda. Pro-wrestling is ridiculous.

I never cared one bit about martial arts. Like, at all. I understood shoot-style immediately and it remains the most beautiful pro-wrestling style I've ever seen.

Actually, that's rather well put. Glad I'm neither here nor there though.

I also said lucha isn't actually "hard to get into". To me it's mostly all contextual. People have made good points about it like I said.

The way facts are presented in the title comes off as a bit whiny to me. Very "us vs them" mentality. It sets a predecent even before the discussion begins I think. Not that it should excuse "blah, lucha just sucks" kinda answers though. Did I ever say "lucha is inferior" ? I don't think I have. Plenty of people have expressed plenty of perfectly reasonnable ideas and conceptions of why they don't really get into it in this thread.

About immaturity, no offense Grim, but the very title of the thread came off pretty whiny to me. As it's often the case with lucha being discussed in comparison to Japan. Poooor lucha. Must be some kind of "higher art" in pro-wrestling that people not willing to "put the effort in" (please) just can't understand. I'm sorry, but that tone is a bit of a regular occurence when lucha is discussed, and as Charles mentionned, the fact purist lucha fans sometime have that kinda "high horse" attitude talking down to the puroresu-loving bozos who must be Evil Meltzer disciples and post-colonialist lazy pro-wrestling fans not able to understand a culture not permeated by US tropes. Whereas, as it been pointed many times, including by Goc, who no one will accuse me of agreeing with a whole lot usually, there are a lot of common elements between lucha and good ol' rasslin'. What is more foreign ? A bunch of clear defined heels and faces in colorful costumes with beatdowns and comebacks or a bunch of undistinctive japanese guys in black trunks, black books, no kneepads doing some bizarre back and forth, sudden quick selling strikes and odd looking selling ? There are reasons why, most of them contextuel. But Lucha ain't "hard to get". I said myself I never really "got it", but not in the way of "this is too foreign, this is too odd". Just in a "this isn't really drawing me completely", despite having seen some great old-school bloodletting. I would point out to a lot a stuff that have been talked bout, like announcing, production, presentation etc...

I couldn't stand Mundo in S1 either. The heel turn and the Taya connection in S2 did a lot of good. And I wasn't the biggest Puma fan either in S1. Fenix was a much better technico. Again, I warmed up to Puma toward the end of the season and in S2, with the great Muertes feud.