El-P

Arguing with Parv about Flair has caused exactly nothing to me. Mild annoyance for 5 minutes maybe. Rankings of any DVDVR sets means exactly zilch to me BTW. But it's really not a matter of trying to prove anything. I saw a thread that said "great match under 10 minutes", I saw this embeded video of a match I had seen already, but watched again to be sure that was the one, and took it as an exemple of actually not being a great match at all. But still fun. I guess saying a Lawler match is only *fun* is akin to be negative at this point, but not really. It's perfectly fine for what it is, I enjoyed it the first time I saw it, I enjoyed it again this time around. But if this is a *great match*, ok, then anything can be called a great match. And Raven would skyrocket in my top 100 then.

Of course. That's why it's a *fun little gimmick match*. It doesn't take a genius to work that gimmick either, but it's well done, and Lawler is quite funny getting money in his pocket by running away. But that's a not a great match, nor even a great angle or TV segment. Fun little gimmick match is perfectly okay though, nothing wrong with loving that.

I wouldn't even call that *good*. It's funny. Lawler stalls more than Zybszko on Lexomils, but that's what makes it funny. But if that is considered a legit *great* match, then I'm fucking Naomi Watts every week-end. Mariko Yoshida vs Yumi Fukawa from ARS 1999 first round is the best 10 minutes match I've ever seen.

After watching shitloads of WCCW stuff, I gotta say most of the Freebirds vs Von Erich stuff just don't translate well to me in 2015. It really has a feel of "you had to be there", because it got great heat, but the matches really weren't all that. I could elaborate on the Michael Haye case (from underrated to overrated), but I'll just point out that as a unit, the Freebird really weren't *that* innovative. Buddy Robert & Terry Gordy were the workhorses, Buddy being better than Gordy at the beginning of the decade (during the peak of the Von Erich feud), then Gordy getting ahead probably after getting to work Japan with Hansen. Lot of fun brawling matches. But they were just that : fun. I haven't seen any match I'd call great, then again, working with three guys whose finishers were the fucking claw, and were awkward as hell, good luck. You often hear how much Texas was a snug territory and how things were realer than elsewhere. Ok. But that doesn't mean it looked better than elsewhere. It clearly didn't. Thus, you have a case where maybe they were beating up each other for real, but it looked worse than other places where they didn't beat up each other for real. Anyway, I enjoy the Freebirds, I'm a big Gordy fan, I like early Robert a lot, I tolerate Hayes despite his shit looking, well, like shit a lot of the time (and yes, execution matters), but to me they clearly are overrated both as a working unit and an "innovative" act. Ishin Gundan thet aren't. Great draw and great heat against the three big Von Erich bros though, but that doesn't mean I think their matches were terrific. They weren't, at least not in World Class.

Frankly, I could. Watched so many Arn matches during my WCW watch, and I never ever got bored of it. And that's without taking in account most of the 80's. Arn in the 90's was a much better and interesting worker than Flair to me on average. Not sure I would (I'm still a sucker for great single matches and Flair takes the cake there easily), but I could.

Matt's post was funny as shit. Dark humour is good. Glad I saw it before the PC version.

It's awesome, but it's not a pro-wrestling match.

I would be stunned if he finished below Guerrero, Benoit or Liger this time, and I don't see their cases as particularly linked to the same trends in thought that might or might not hurt Flair. From that list, only Hansen and Funk seem like solid bets to pass him, and I don't think that's a given in either case. My gut sense is he'll finish higher this time, not lower. It would be funny as shit if he finished #8 again, but it's highly unlikely. He'll move up. Yeah probably. What's old is new again.

Funny, I actually red Barthes' Mythologies the other week. And what he says about pro-wrestling is great and also underlines why post-modern pro-wrestling really can't work (and it doesn't)

Seriously, I always loved Oz, but I always considered her a heel, even against Dynamite. Same for Tenryu or Kawada/Taue, who were grumpy assholes kicking you in the face. And again, Hokuto was only a babyface once she represented true joshi and Zenjo against that evil shootstyle bitch from LLPW Kandori. The LCO was a total heel faction from the start. Don't overplay the whole "workrate hungry generation". Many of us (I guess, since I was part of it) were fans of cool heels too, and this is probably why all these workers were pimped the way they were (Shimoda, Takako, Suzuki were all pimped more as bitchy heels then they were when they worked babyfaces, when they did). At the same time, an FMW fan like me couldn't ignore the heel/face dynamics over there, and Onita and Kudo were the two überbabyfaces this side of 80's Chiggy. And it was not hard to get behind Kudo as a babyface, seeing how awful the heel side was and how great she was at making them look passable and make herself look like the greatest overcoming though girl babyface ever at the same time (not a small feat). I don't buy for a second the heel/face dynamic was meaningless. It never was to me. But I always was mostly a heel fan. How could anyone deny the heelishness of grumpy Jumbo anyway ?

No. The issue was Parv's self importance in wanting "listener's only" to comment on his little vanity podcast project, and having an admin taking his side when there was a lot of actual discussions that could steem from actual posts in the threads, without being forced to listen to some podcast. (meanwhile, Parv's latest reaction to contradictors on the Flair thread in the GOAT poll forum was "lol", I guess because not listening to hours of podcasts makes us not worthy, while his reaction to GOTNW arguments on the podcast thread was "oh, I might as well write off this guy for good because he's a waste a time"). And "martyr" isn't even close to the right word. Just disappointed, really. It's not like I'm gonna loose sleep over this. But yeah, disappointed. Whatever.

As long as I'm not forced to listen to hours of podcasts to be allowed to discuss such esoteric workers as Ric Flair, I might send a ballot. Then again, maybe free discussion is not the idea of this board anymore.

Not an iron-man match, but there was the infamous Toyota vs Kyoko 1H match in 95 of course. And yeah JD's had a bunch back then. Fang Suzuki going an hour…

https://twitter.com/stephmcmahon/status/581881800659591168 That quote with the Susan G. Kamen logo on the back makes for a nice little side effect indeed.

He was so slim too ! Amazing clip. The best anecdote about Andre remains the one about Samuel Beckett driving him to school though.

Didn't she and Bret always denied that actually ? (not that I would believe Sunny on anything, but…)

Russo was big on Sable too. Well, in the end, she did drew shitloads of ratings for a short time while Sunny did a lot of drugs and ended up doing porn skype sessions at 40, while Sable married Brock Lesnar. Different paths of life. (of course, Sable had no talent whatsoever, so…)

On a more positive note, and post-match bullshit aside, I did love Sasha vs Bayley, although I don't think it was as great as the previous match (not a knock though). Banks is the closest thing to a Takako Inoue ever in US wrestling. And yeah, I thought making that little girl cry was great. I don't care if it's exploitative or not, that's the gist of pro-wrestling. Plus the babyface won, so the little girl got to be even happier at the end, so all is right. Asuka's debut was impressive considering the opposition.

How is this not about Triple H ? After the last match, we got the first fourth-wall-breaking in the four NXT girls doing their tribute to the Curtain Call. Do you think it was spontaneous ? I mean, what the hell was that all about ? No one is leaving the promotion either (much like this time, which is why people making reference to joshi retirements are all missing the point). It was just a referential "moment", scripting the so-called "Diva Revolution" into the mythical canon of WWE history, which was also BTW the debut of Triple H's story. Now, we get another step forward. This time, Bailey and Sasha are simply swallowed by the entire WWE narrative of "good mom and dad Trip & Stephy so proud of their daughters whom they allowed to became big stars in a feminist and modern act of promotion". Why would Bailey need a "nice moment" on screen ? Her "nice moment" should be : "I beat Sasha for good this time, I'm really the champ." Hell, if you want to break the fourth wall, at least do that after the show. I'm not even talking about backstage, because it would be useless at this point, but at least after the show is over. But no. The conclusion of the show is indeed : Triple H *gave* Bailey a nice moment, in every sense of the word : he gave her flowers and tapped her on the shoulders in a paternalist gesture of approval, and he gave her the opportunity to be in the main event because he's the Authority. Uurah for Trip. This is awesome. I would go more into details about the annoying chanting audience and how it pertains to our social media society and the fact every moment has to be shared, commented and approved by a public act (the "like" on Facebook, Twitter or whatever), how that also plays a role in the global self-consciousness of the whole thing (and how this kind of approval is as much about the one who approves as it is about the thing that is approved, I'll put it that way : "Look at me approving you. I know. I want you to know that I know, because this fact is important, as I am important."), and how the "women's wrestling" and "you deserve it" chant really annoyed me from the beginning, but I'll wait for that. About Stephy and how hypocrite it is to see her taking credits on whatever feminist statement this "Diva Revolution" (fuck, using the word "Diva" is embarrassing enough) is, I'm working on a new idea, using the (often annoying to be honest because it's rather condescending) "mainsplaining" term and turning it into "Stephsplaining". I think I'll have fun with this.

Why can't he just let his wrestlers wrestle, tell their stories and be successful at it, and save the party and applause for backstage ? Because the story is not "Good girl Bailey triumphs over evil Sasha Banks", the story is really "Look at how Triple H and Stephy are revolutionnizing women's sports-entertainement." That's the actual narrative, because like everything else, the true narrative of everything about WWE is the WWE itself. And WWE is Trip and Stephy.

We're officially in the era of "self-conscious everything". Which sucks when you're as talented as Sasha Banks, really. I wish she could just be a pro-wrestler doing pro-wrestling matches in a pro-wrestling promotion, and not another cog in the WWE narrative machine, which doesn't believe in fiction for its wrestler anymore, as the only fiction it produces is its own as a living "legendary" entity. Triple H found yet another way to put himself on the picture at the end. And less said about Mother Hen Stephy the best. Yep. I didn't like that post-match, as you can guess...

Oh man, I just remembered this awesome stuff (based on a true cancer charity scam story in France in the 90's). You really don't need the translation to get the joke : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtwC9UviDLo

Wait, let me get this straight. The anti-cancer "charity" WWE supports is actually a scam ? That's pretty rich indeed.

Don't worry, I won't post here anymore. Still, one clarification before I get the hell out : how do you know if I listened to the show or not ? Right. It's *impossible* to know (and it's not like I feel I have to justify myself either). I can make the exact same comment I just made whether of not I listened to the show. Then again, you just made my point actually by saying this was not about Flair. Well indeed. That's what I thought too. That's why I'm happily getting out of this thread now.

Come on, that's great psychology. Well. Nevermind.