El-P

Yeah, that was like the most shocking thing that Kudo the workrate fans darling and beautiful woman was married with that sleazy looking shitty garbage wrestler Hido. Well, I guess people were jealous, as Hido was not that bad and actually quite fun at times. Still, quite the odd couple for FMW fans. Nah. Sullivan was not a bad looking dude when he was younger, and was in terrific shape too. On the other hand, Stacy Keibler and David Flair. Never quite figured it out. I guess he was a charming young man in private.

Just to add a last word on the matter, which is extremely complex, for me it's less a matter of drawing a line that would work for every case than deciding and judging for each case depending on the whole context (the context of the crime and of my own relationship, or lack thereof, with the guy's work). I would include Benoit for the simple reason I watched him and considered him a great wrestler before. If I knew nothing about Benoit today, I wouldn't go out of my way to watch him and would certainly not include him because in the end, I would just not have seen much of him except when opposed to someone I'd be really interested in (and even then, my enjoyment would most probably be tainted). Watching Benoit in the context of going through ECW and WCW made it a small part of a whole (just a few months in ECW and late 95 to 99 in a 89-2001 WCW timeline), and I admit that I was glad whenever he wasn't on TV and also fast forwarded a lot of stuff that weren't important angles/matches, not because it bothered me to watch him, but because I didn't really wanted to watch him anymore. Totally forgot about Sasaki. That's a good example, as the circonstances have been quite blurry (same thing happened in the Sumo world a few years ago, with a trainee dying because he was abused in the dojo). The very positive image change he went through in the 2000's mostly put that dark cloud out of everybody's minds. Some go so far to say his new approach in life and will to developp and take young guys under his wing was a way to "make up" for his past actions. Didn't something happen with Great Khali too BTW ?

Since I'm basically responsible for the existence of this thread, let me rebound on this : Yeah, that is my personnal experience I was talking about. Benoit was for all I know a decent guy who was also s great wrestler. Then he snapped and went insane and killed his kid and wife. At this point, I wasn't even following wrestling anymore, I had not watch much of his WWE career (expect for the big PPV matches preparing for the SC poll). Benoit was already a done deal. So when I had to rewatch his stuff on ECW and WCW during my 90's project, it was all rewatch and only part of a much broader context. I also couldn't watch a match of his without thinking "he killed Nancy" at some point, no matter how great the match was. Some times it was straight away sometimes it was later on. Some stuff was awkward as hell to watch (like when he's arguing with Nancy at ringside during a WCW angle). I've had no "issue" watching it back, but I have no desire to seek out his matches now that I'm done with this era. I probably won't ever watch a Benoit match again until I go back to watch some 90's NJ at some point, and I'm perfectly happy about it. The Invader case is different because I'd have to actively seek out his matches. And I have no desire to watch or even try to enjoy his stuff, with which I have no relationship to begin with. Benoit was part of my wrestling fandom. Like with most of us, as we watched him and praised him before the abomination he commited. Invader isn't, except for maybe El Boricua on this board. So yeah, there are hundreds of guys I can enjoy if I want. And I don't see the point in studying a guy who "alledgedly" stabbed a guy and let him bleed to death. Of course you could extent that feeling to guys like Carlos Colon, in asking what responsability they had in covering this mess. Likewise I'm not at ease with watching Snuka to be honest. That's my personal viewpoint on this case. As far as Zumhofe goes, I'll never bat an eye on this guy. I don't need to, and he's a human piece of waste. It's not even "alledged". It's a fact. And yeah, I realize that there are a lot of dirtbag in this business, likewise in pretty much the entire entertainment business, that we don't know off. But those I know about, I'd rather not have to deal with them. Yes, it's a personnal choice, and probably a question of personal sensitivity. Moral I dunno. Probably, to some extent. On a different yet parrallel topic, I'm not sure I want to watch one of those late AJ/NOAH head-dropping match ever again, since we know that it directly led Misawa to his death. There you go, that's my take on the whole thing.

By preventing mods from abusing their power by deleting posts that are neither insulting nor out of line or out of topic (considering I believe talking about should or should't we consider Invader 1 as "just another guy" is a valid question), while a the same time continuing to insult and talk down (acting like a five year old / personnal meltdown) without even letting a chance for a reply. This is abuse of power and censurship. So there.

What about Keiji Mutoh and Don Muraco then ? Muraco especially, who's the greatest laziest wrestler ever. I'd be hard pressed to put him on the same level as some not so "great" but way more consistent workers.

(oh, whatever. This doesn't even warrant an answer from me. It speaks for itself.)

I dunno. It seems odd to me to hear people in awe of a guy who actually killed another man in cold blood. Hopefully no one starts a Buck Zhumhofe thread… Anyway…

After my 90's watch I came to the conclusion that Brad was overrated in the sense he's been declared underrated all his career. He was perfectly fine where he was, and was the definition of "a good hand". Scott was the best promo but not so good in the ring. Steve was decent but easily worse than Brad. Road Dog had the best mix of all brothers, plus the size, it's no wonder he's the one who had the most success. All in all, the infamous "great" Armstrong brothers were a little bit overrated overall if you ask me. And Bullet Bob was the best promo guy of the family too. Butterface Tim Horner was better (although with a lot less charisma, hell no charisma at all), and Barry Horowitz was more interesting when he was given something to do. The Candido feud is more fun than pretty much any Brad Armstrong stuff.

So, he's everyone favourite murderer now ? Has Snuka been nominated yet ?

Love it to this day. Great dog and pony show by Raven, which gets great heat and terrific nearfalls.

The most offensive thing during this whole angle of its many followups was the upmost misoginy with which Terri Runnels was pictured. 1/ She's a slut because a mother shouldn't dress sexy for God's sake. 2/ She's a slut because she's having an "affair" with another man despite the fact her and Dustin have been effectively separated for months after HE dumped her on live TV and humiliated her in the process. Wait, what ? And don't get me on the upcoming "Terry is pregnant but gets dumped by Val who's getting cheered then gets a miscarriaged after being manhandled then admits her miscarriage was a fake like all bitches do then gets revenge on guys by putting together a stable named PMS" angles. To quote Terri herself in her shoot interview : vomit. And yeah, the Val Venis character sums up everything wrong about Russo's influence on the product.

It's hilarious on so many level since the Outlaws were just way more over than Triple H during the entire second DX stint, as was X-Pac from that matter, coming off the infamous shoot-on-Bischoff comeback promo.

Awful pro-wrestler. I did enjoy some RVD, especially from the early years. But he's part of the "I'd be happy never to see another match of his" club. No. He's a guy that offers a ton of potentiality to do cool things. He just needs the right opponents to be able to have a nice dance. He's also very singular, there really isn't anyone working like RVD.

Hulk Hogan was a jingoistic flag waving asshole who talked about God, acted like a dick toward his friends, used dirty underhanded tactics while pretending "fighting for what is right", which infact was only his own best interests, and was a total whining bitch when he didn't get his way. So yeah, no wonder he connected wonderfully during the Reagan era. Basically.

Those shows look truly awful. It's sad that WWE's ownership of what was US pro-wrestling has turned into this.

RAW upload during the build for WM 13. Amazing to think we're 17 years later and the presentation basically hasn't evolved.

Oh God yes. Thanks for reminding me how much I loved Victor Zangiev.

Is Dolph Ziggler the guy who patterned himself after… Billy Gunn on crack ?

That it was a great 7 minutes match.

Don't you know that Ric Flair at one point worked 90 minutes matches every day against Steamboat, and twice on Sunday ? And they were different matches all the time too since back in the days bla bla bla… They sold out everywhere too.

This reminds me of an Ozaki vs Chiggy match on a big GAEA card in 99. It lasted about 5 or 6 minutes, and Oz was smart as hell during this and made it as good as it could. Yet, I would never call it a great match, although Oz was definitely having a great performance for what it was. On the other hand, Yoshida vs Fukawa going 10 minutes in the first round of the ARS Tournament that same year (how do I even remember this stuff when I didn't watch it in more than ten years ?) was the closest thing to a legit great fucking match I've ever seen. Yeah, I would call this one legit great. But a bit too short. Damn.

One of the most fascinating wrestler I've ever seen. By the end of my ECW watch, I was still as happy to watch yet another Sabu match as I was at the very beginning.

Then it's even sadder than I thought.

It's telling that pro-wrestling has become a joke, more or less, really. Stuff like Mr. Socko already annoyed me to no end back 15 years ago. These kind of ridiculous comedy spots get over not because fans can be educated but because they are ridiculous comedy spots.

Do people get a cookie when they say something bad about Raven around here ? Anyway, it's funny because Raven vs Saturn from Fall Brawll (or WWIII, I don't remember) 98 is the perfect exemple of a match playing out to a dead crowd and getting them hot as hell toward the finish. But Raven never got the chance to get himself over in WWF ("who the fuck hired Raven" anyone ?), and Saturn was a Velocity worker at this point. So yeah. Dead crowd I guess. Anyway. Matwork spotfest totally screams Dean Malenko to me. And not even very good ones, as Malenko had this annoying habit (that several cruiserweight got) of kicking out of his own pinfall attempts to get into the next position. Spotfests can be fun when they present something dynamic, extremely well executed and not too contrived. Not exactly what I'm looking for at this point.