El-P

Cena not being in is logical since he's supposed to be hurt. Lawler being in makes no sense whatsoever, but at this point, who cares ?

At least the perspective of CM Punk vs Daniel Bryan is pretty cool to say the least.

It's sad. On one hand they are trying to present themselves as pure entertainment, on the other hand they are crossing the lines old carnies wouldn't cross because it didn't make sense and never worked in the end. Yes, it worked as to create interest for a week or two, then they were incapable of booking the angle of which they planted the seeds for. Seems like we're getting the same thing here. It's sad. Brock coming back and the match with Cena is the closest thing to me being somewhat excited about watching some WWE again. But the booking just makes me want to bash my computer if I'm thinking about it.

Ok. if it's "all a big work", I'm asking the question : what is the point ? Working the Internet ? Working the hardcore fans ? Working the dirt sheets ? Seriously, we're still there in 2012 ?

You forgot Hash-Ogawa. John No, it was awesome. Ask around. Booker vs HHH really had no big effect other than killing Booker for a while, but "Racist heel kills off black babyface" is indeed mind-blowing.

No shit. If it's a "Pillman work", even part of it, then I was right to bring on Russo after all (sadly). The infamous Bookerman promo was Russo's big inspiration for shooty shooty stuff and swerving people. I didn't like the pseudo shooty aspect of Cena's promo yesterday, but it's getting worse. I sure hope Lesnar doesn't get written off. If that's a case, I think we can agree all of this is a complete debacle and deserves to get into "Worst booking decisions ever" thread. I'm even more baffled today.

Jake vs Lawler was embarrasing on every level. Terrible matches, bad promos, Lawler being a dick pouring actual alchohol into Jake's throat. Just bad stuff coming from guys who should do much better.

Some people argue Cena looked like he lost the war despite winning the match, and that the post match was comparable to HHH vs Taker from last year. I disagree and that is why. That is not the point. I don't think it will kill Lesnar of course, but I don't buy the argument that Cena looked like he lost the war just because he was standing bloodied after the match. We've seen that in the past with other Cena opponents who weren't special. Point is, if Cena wins the match, at least have him slaughter him afterward.

I'm glad he was selling his arm still, it would have been infuriating if he didn't, but it's not like he looked destroyed. As far as being covered in blood, he was covered in blood after his last man standing match against Umaga from RR07 too. Look at the post match of this one, it's not much different at all.

The last image on the PPV wasn't Cena carried out because he was destroyed despite winning the match (like Taker was at Mania last year), the last image of the PPV was Cena cutting a half-shooty promo thanking the fans and telling them they can drive home safely. I mean, I understand the reasonning, but it doesn't appear at all that in the end Cena was busted up by Brock. Cena was standing on his own like he always does after winning a hard fought match.

All that is all well and good, but don't you think the story would be a tad more compelling and exciting if Cena didn't already beat Brock once ? And the question would be : "Can John Cena be the man who will finally defeat the monster and save the WWE Universe ?" as opposed to "Cena is back, we know he beat Lesnar on his first try, game over."

Why would Lesnar have issues to do business anyway ? He's getting millions, and he doesn't care much about pro-wrestling to begin with. Lesnar doesn't have a history of refusing to do jobs, does he ?

I thought it was implied since it came as a follow-up to us discussing back and forth about the issue. If it wasn't, I apologize for the "condescending" line. Ok then.

I actually agree. I only brought up Russo because Dan was saying in was "interesting reversal booking". I doubt that was the actual reason. We can think of many others. Again, I agree. Punk is an internet darling, so we know how things work. I for one feared a shitty match to begin with. I got an awesome match that was more fun than anything I watched in ten years coming from WWE, so it's not like I have any reason to flip out other than the idiotic booking.

Yeah, whatever. So, answer to those people directly, but no one here expressed that point of view (which is a stupid one indeed). Again, has this happened on this very board ? Hum... don't think so. So blaming people around here for an attitude that really hasn't been displayed here is pretty off the mark I would say. Without trying to sound condescending nor pretentious. I'm doing my best. I'm trying. (meanwhile, some talks about "fucking idiots" because they disagree. Quite defensive indeed.)

I don't think it's nowhere near Sting/Hogan, Nash beating Goldberg or the Invasion angle. But it's still really really stupid. I honestly didn't believe for one second that Cena would win that match beforehand. SO yeah, they swerved me. Hooray ! You got me WWE. Now ? Well, I'm excited to watch other Brock Lesnar match because that one was so awesome, but Lesnar already lost his luster as a monster now, so I'm not really excited to know what will happen next. Just throw some matches and I'll watch hoping it'll be fun.

That is so condescending it's ridiculous. God forbid someone would share the same opinion with the Meltz from time to time. Like people who think Cena winning is stupid are simply following Meltz's lead and not able to think by themselves. Remind me of that one when I drop the dreaded "trend" word next time around. As far as discussing the finish, I think it's been said already, at least I'm pretty clear about it : as a match in a vacuum, everything worked great, loved the hell out of the match, have no issue with Cena winning. As far as booking long term, it's an abortion to have Cena beat Lesnar in his first match. There's not much else to say that hasn't been said already. And don't act like anyone pretended like nothing was worth discussing. Discussing and arguing is what we're doing since we all saw that match. I don't even get where you're coming from with that ridiculous "people who think it's a good idea are not true wrestling fan" stuff to be honest.

Yes. Absolutely. Brock didn't slip on a banana peel and got small packaged. Cena busted him open with a chain and dropped his ass on steel stairs. Then walked around the ring and cut a promo while Brock was nowhere to be seen again. Yes, he did beat Brock. Totally felt like the ending of a big feud.

aka Russo booking : "They believe we'll do this so we'll do the opposite because..... because we'll do the opposite".

There's a happy medium between "needs to be protected with victories" and "losing your very first match clean to what should have been the big money feud".

So, you've got : _THE Invasion _Starrcade 97 _Nash beats Goldberg and ends the streak _Hash beats Takada just a few months after Takada got the IWGP belt _Lesnar losing his first match back to Cena in a post WM B-PPV _David Arquette, WCW champ _fucking up Bret vs Vince with stupid overbooking

Yea, that helped Goldberg a lot to realize that he was beatable after Starrcade 98.

You also got Lesnar's method, which was to elbow the guy in the head and make him bleed hardway. Pick you poison.

Cena is the Man. He can lose especially if you build an über monster against him. That won't hurt him. The loss to The Rock was a special case : it was The Rock, it was at Mania in the Rock's hometown. No one would get hurt from losing there, especially when Cena rarely loses anyway. Hash/Ogawa was another thing entirely, in a different context. First off, Ogawa couldn't work a lick. The matches sucked. And Has was already in a position where he needed to get rebuild, he wasn't on top anymore after the disastrous Sasaki reign. Winning the G1 CLimax in 98 was a step into rebuilding him. And Hash never got the great big revenge. Ogawa just squashed him in terrible matches.

So basically you say that was Cena's "Dreamer takes ten cane shots and He's Hardcore He's Hardcore He's Hardcore" moment ? 5-6 years into his reign of being The Man in the WWE, do you think that will shake up things that much when he comes back ? I'm very doubtful. You're giving WWE way too much credit here when you talk about reversal of conventionnal booking. It's just the usual "let's run through a feud because we don't have any patience and can't book long term". In other words : stupid booking.