El-P

Back then, when snowflakes used to be thrown around for every match talked about, MOTYC meant an absolute judgment. To me a match could be MOTYC if the ratings was no less than ****1/4. I know this kind of thinking is a bit passé, but to me the term MOTYC still means a certain absolute quality. It's a same thing when I judge movies. If I don't have more than 2 or 3 movies that I can say are Movies-of-the-year candidates, it means that it's a pretty weak year. If I have zero and that the best movie I've seen is no better than *very good*, then it's a winner by default, but not really a MOTYC. Throw it a year back and it wouldn't be a MOTYC. Well, it's the same thing there.

My point exactly.

Afraid to die before he accomplishes everything he wants maybe. Anyway, the very thought of the Great Khali in the Tree of Life is mindfucking. But watching him in a French movie adapted from a belgian comic was quite the surprise too. I did get a kick out of Kurrgan in the first Sherlock Holmes with Robert Downey Jr. Great monster in there. Doesn't the Great Khali look kinda like Kurrgan on growth hormones ?

Just saw the Great Khali in a movie. No, I mean a real movie, mainstream, directed by the excellent Alain Chabat, an adaptation of Franquin's comic books, "Sur la piste du Marsupilami". One of the big movies of this early spring in France. I doubt it will ever be distibuted in the US though, but I thought it was funny. And he was refered to as The Great Khali in the credits.

It will sound like a total cliché, but the disapearance of kayfaybe does hurt the perception of wrestling a lot. Everything is too self-conscious these days, including the audience.

Well, after watching so many horrible and nightmarish stuff on that card, I was expecting another huge turd with this match, and watching Gang bump really well for Gigante, actually do some logical stuff like attacking the knee for a while, deliver a flying clothesline that looked really good (Kane still hasn't figured it out) made me enjoy this match way more than I should have. Hey, I never said he had a good match with El Gigante, I said almost got a decent match. Gotta love the get thrown out of the top rope spot when the audience is asking for Flair. The knee attack was nice for a few shots, but you don't want OMG and El Gigante work submissions on the mat, do you ? Like you said, the real reason was kill some time off before Gigante gets back to his feet. OMG always looked sluggish, it's part of his monster appeal. I don't expect him to run around the ring. Anyway, my comment was half-jokingly written, of course Ricky Morton was the best worker on the show and had the best match (which was nothing special), but with everyone either booked in shitty stipulation matches (Austin, Taylor, Eaton, Arn) or underperforming (Windham, Pillman), Gang provided the most surprisingly entertaining performances of the night, as Gigante is usually FF material only. Expection and context played an important role I guess.

Well, as I have stated on my very first post, I also think there's quite a bit of matter of difference of taste that also plays into it. I understand perfectly. That being said, I do think a 10 minutes TV match can be much better than a 30 minutes epic, especially since the TV match works and the 30 minute epic fails to meet my criteria. To me the format is irrelevant to being a MOTYC or not though. I have seen 10 minutes matches that ended up being legit great match. I have seen countless boring 20 minutes plus main events. And not to mention the modern "self-conscious" epic which I can't stand. I wish there will be a match on WWE TV this year that I'll find legit great, so I could make a comparison between this one and the Punk/Henry match.

Ok cool.

Sorry if I got the thread into another direction, that wasn't my intent, but my point is in fact all about asking myself "Have the standarts dropped that much ?" and not "Has there been any better matche on WWE TV yet." I think my point organically derives from the first question actually, because if Punk vs Henry really does look like the best stuff on WWE TV thus far, it means that WWE TV doesn't produce a whole lot of really good matches, and that having this one as a MOTYC thus far means that 2012 MOTYC meets pretty low standards.

I haven't rewachted it, but I remember it as being truly an excellent match, one of the best single Gedo match ever.

Part of it is, I guess, but I think it's interesting to talk about what should be a MOTYC in 2012, and does that imply that standarts have dropped despite the fact there *may* be more good TV matches than ever (at least from the perspective of people who have followed WWE TV in the last 10 years). Transfer Punk vs Henry in 1997, and although it's a very good TV match, it just won't hold a candle to Owen vs Bulldog from Germany or Bret vs Austin from Mania, which were legit MOTYC. Would it be a notable very good TV match ? Maybe, I'd have to watch back 97 Raw which have haven't since then, I guess there may be some good stuff buried there too, but yeah, it probably would look good. The fact that you consider it a MOTYC to me is already baffling from my perspective. Either we disagree a lot despite the fact I enjoyed it and think it's quality wrestling, either the overall quality of what passes for "great wrestling" has dropped a lot since the 90's. It's simple, if by the end of the year, Punk vs Henry still looks like one of the top 5 matches on TV, it means that there was no great wrestling on TV, despite the enormous amount of competitive TV match. Which would imply that not only the standarts have dropped so much that a really good TV match is pimped as awesome, but the overall quality of work has dropped a lot too, despite the current WWE formula which makes it easier for workers to work good matches. I don't think anyone made that claim here. I even said some of the pimped SNME matches are overrated because there was so few of them that all of a sudden a really good match was more remarquable. That being said, you can have a mediocre TV week to week with occasionnal excellent matches (the 90's maybe) and good average week to week TV with nothing better than *good* (the 00's and beyond maybe). The point is : have the standarts dropped ? I think they have, for a number of reasons. Well, speaking about what should constitute a MOTYC seems interesting, but maybe this should be cut into another thread.

GAB 91 is objectively one of the worst PPV I've seen. The only matches to save are Morton vs Gibson, which was good but had a shit finish, Young Pistols & Dustin vs Fabulous Freebirds which was decent. Barry Windham vs Lex Luger was subpar for a match between those two, and it was doomed from the get-go, as the audience just didn't want to see this match, and no-one got the fact Luger turned heel. Poor Luger, it was to be his big night, already one year too late, and Flair leaving fucked him pretty good. The heel turn didn't work at all. The rest of the card was passable (Diamond Stud vs Z-Man, Sting vs Nikita) to fucking horrible (Oz vs Simmons, Pillman as the Yellow Dog vs Johnny B. Badd, scaffold match). The most enjoyable thing to me was to see One Man Gang almost get a decent match out of El Gigante, ponder that for a minute. Considering what he had to work with, Gang was pretty much the standout worker of the night.

No, it's exactly the opposite infact. My point is that Punk vs Henry is merely a very good match to me. Ad if a *very good match* can be considered MOTYC, then it means the standarts have dropped insanely. That there are more good matches on TV now than during the SNME days is only a product of the context, and doesn't change the standart. And I wonder how actually good are these *good matches*. If Punk vs Henry is a great match and MOTYC, then we disagree on what qualifies as an awesome match and MOTYC. Which means we probably disagree on the number of what people today consider *good* matches on TV too. And it's not even an issue of me thinking Punk vs Henry sucked, like I said I thought it was really good and enjoyed it a lot. But if that match is that much better than anything else on TV to be considered MOTYC, then I don't think I would enjoy much of what's on TV in 2012.

Lot of Saturday Night Main Event matches that are remembered fondly right now are also overrated. The context is different, back then how many big competitive match did you got every week compared to now ? Times have changed, and it's easier than ever to have a lot of good TV matches. People remember fondly SNME matches because they were a rarity. But I guess a *very good* SNME match like Bret vs DiBiase happening today on TV probably would have people go crazy for it to and name it a MOTYC too, despite not being worthy either, not now, not then.

Ditto. A WWE one no less. And enjoying it to boot.

Very solid, and Morton was excellent working heel. The finish hurts the match though, it's really lame. Week shot on the shoulder with a light laptop, after Morton spent the match pulverizing Gibson's knee ? With a good comeback and a good finish, would have been very good to excellent.

Not me. The Straight Edge gimmick is great for a heel character whi thinks he's better than everyone else, but as a face it's trickier to use it in an efficient way. You won't become an alcoholic because you get drenched in beer. It doesn't makes a lot of sense, and really it's not very fun at all. Jericho and CM Punk are better than this.

This is where I really see how much our views on matches differ. I enjoyed the match quite a bit, I thought it was *good*, hell, as a TV match I thought it was very good despite a shit finish. But MOTYC, no way, that would mean the quality of wrestling dropped to depressing low levels in the last 10 years.

I'm thinking that card might draw a bit. John That card would be huge, although once again, it relies mostly on nostalgia acts : Taker (yes, I consider Taker a nostalgia act at this point), Austin (I never thought he would work another match honestly), Rock, Brock. Not exactly fresh new stars, more like dream matches, which is cool for WM I guess. All that seems really cool on paper, but you need to add the real main event : HHH vs Shawn Michaels.

Oh man... He made shitload of money, he's banged up and he's 34, I doubt he'll kill himslef to have good matches like he did in 2003. Hum... If they lean toward Rock vs Brock next year at Mania, it will be very interesting to see how they will handle Brock in the meantime. I guess they should build to Brock vs Cena at SummerSlam then go into Brock vs Rock.

I feel your pain.

Most probably. Brock apparently got an insane amount of money and will work a light schedule. And you thought people got mad at the Rock for getting a big paycheck ?

From what I've seen of Lesnar, being most of his PPV matches a few years after the fact, he was a green guy with tons of potential. Much better than Sid or Warrior, he doesn't even compare to be honest. Had a bunch of really good match, and he was a monster that could work. In a way he looked like he could be the second coming of Vader, including the same flaws (bumping too much too soon). And he had a lot of charisma, and was managed by Heyman, who was seen as "Mr. Good Wrestling" back then opposing Stephy. Now, in reality, Lesnar didn't do that much, and I think that also plays into the fact his aura has grown. With the years going by, and especially with his UFC experience, Lesner has turned in the mind of people, including Meltz, into some kind of lost great worker of the last decade, the huge star that could be. In reality, Lesnar was just a really excellent rookie pushed to the top because of his size and body, who didn't like wrestling and quit because he was fed up and didn't care, and never drew a dime back then. Then he went to New Japan and stuck up the joint there. It's been how many years since he worked a match ? Lesnar coming back today is another way of banking on nostalgia, he's not the future, and I understand Meltz thinking this guy may just pack it up if he's not happy. Then, Meltz remains of Lesnar mark because of UFC. I think everybody is overestimating Lesnar both as a draw and a worker at this point. I'm very interested to say the least, because I enjoyed early Lesnar a lot, but I know he could also be a huge failure if he doens't want to work. We'll see.

The crowd was like a *good* ECW crowd, bringing what was the most fun about ECW audience. The "Si ! " chant at Alberto was great. The "We want lesnar" chant at Cena was great. I'm a bit puzzled by "You still got it" at Rock, I mean come on, it's not like Rock is an old geezer. I try not to care about teh crowd when I watch a wrestling match, but a really good crowd helps a show a lot. Makes a bad show tolerable and makes a really good show even better.

Watched the show for obvious reasons. _The Rock announcing he wants to be WWE champ is interesting me. He was pretty awesome once again, head and shoulder above everyone else. _CM Punk vs Mark Henry was a very good match, I enjoyed it a lot. The post-match angle, not so much. Rehash of Jake Roberts vs Jerry Lawler in 96, and those aren't good memories. But, hey, more Jericho vs Punk can only be good. _I thought Cena's promo dragged, and I'm not sold at all on him turning heel. I don't think WWE have the balls, sadly. I really wonder what Lesnar will look like, he hasn't worked in years, and he sucked ass in New Japan last time he did. That said, I'm interested in that too. _Alberto del Rio is still fun. I'm not getting Sheamus' character at all though. His gimmick is that he's really pale and a celtic warrior ? Man, he should come out to True Norvegian Black Metal and be managed by a Klan member, that would be more radical. _The Cobra is retarded like Mr. Socko or the Worm were, but Santino really good at what he does. I guess he's Scotty Too Hotty and Funkasaurus is Rikishi. 2000 feel indeed. _Lord Tensai is cute. It's funny how it's totally reversed psychology on WWE's part. Usually the outside world doesn't even exist, but there you have a guy who was an undercarder coming back from Japan as a star because he made it big there. Interesting. Still way too much talking and useless video game clones (man, that Miz vs Riley match...), I still can't stand the way it's presented (those backstage vignettes just have that horrible flat timing, which added to really poor acting makes them quite painfull most of the time, and it's been ten years + of doing the same), the ring announcer is the most uncharismatic you can think of, but I admit Rock + Punk + Jericho + Tensai + Lesnar kinda makes me want to watch more. After 13 years, I may get back at following the product more closely...