El-P

Well, I have no issue believing the MX and R'n'R match you watched was much better than Punk vs Jericho from Mania. Then again, we're talking some of the best workers ever in another setting, by that I mean, an era where workers were used to improvise and feel the crowd. (when I hear stuff like they tell the workers not to acknowledge the crowd these days, it says everything you need to know about their mentality toward what is "working").

Well, I'm not sure the comparison works the way you want there. The fact is, The Artist is a very good movie, while Twilight is mostly adolescent junk. So, basically, the Twilight crowd went apeshit for the Taker vs HHH match which was pretty much terrible on all account and hilariously bad when you get to see the acting up close, and then sat on their hands for the very good Jericho vs CM Punk match, which was the Artist of the night. Plus it's not like the Artist is a niche arthouse movie, it got mainstream success here, and shitload of press when it was released (I'm talking way before the triumph with prizes). Jericho and CM Punk didn't exactly work a workrate clinic as a wink-wink toward Roh fans, it was just a really good wrestling match, and the setting doesn't change that. Of course it would have gotten over much better in a smaller place without having to go after the draining Taker vs HHH stuff, and before the Rock vs Cena match everyone was dying to see by this time, but saying CM Punk and Jericho jerked off for workrate fans seems quite unfair to me, as you also have to take the context in account. I didn't get that feeling at all from watching the match. On a side note, I doubt it made its way to the US, but the joke about The Artist success at the Academy Award was that "The Americans really like us French people mostly when we shut the fuck up.".

I sure hope Taker has a sendoff of his own, he's the greatest character ever (despite period of sucking both as a gimmick and as a worker), and The Icon to the company. He deserves the biggest sendoff ever, without having Michaels and HHH hogging his last spotlight. Orton is 32, Cena is 34. Does that mean these two will be on top for the next 10 years ?... Scary thought. I think both will be gone before they hit 40. If not, well, welcome to the AWA.

BONG

Sorry, got confused. Yeah, Rock vs Cena is a Tokyo Dome show match, except too long and drawn out. Cut off 5 to 10 minutes and a few kick out of finishers, and it would have been more fun to me. It went too long, and Rock was gasping at the end.

So, what did Meltz think of that amusing turd that was Hunter vs Taker ?

That's a great point and that's why I disagree about whoever said it was like a Tokyo Dome show main event. Not at all. Great Tokyo Dome spectacle are Tenryu and Choshu beating the shit out of each others with lariat and chops. It's Hashimoto and Takada trading kicks. It's Inoki getting suplexed out of his boots by Vader. It's simple, high impact stuff that can register up to the last rows. People in the stadium didn't get to hear Shawn's bad acting, they probably only saw Hunter blabbing with Shawn after a hundred chair shots and wondering why.

Yep. I immediately thought, "hum, world titles mean jackshit."

That's exactly my case. I was interested in the show because of the Rock. I like CM Punk, from the few I've seen of him, as I'm not at all an old follower from his indy days. Ditto for Daniel Bryan, who I know only from rep, but I have seen zero matches from his indy days. So I was interested in watching his match with Sheamus. Needless to say, that was a huge fail. But they needed the time for a useless women's match, Flo-rida, Puff Daddy and his lame protegé, whoever those guys are, and a stupid segment with the Funkasaurus, who's already overstayed its welcome to me. On a side note, Edge was visibly very moved by the fact he was put over much more than the 4 Horsemen and Mike Tyson. When his music hit he looked like "Holy shit, they just went through the Horsemen and Tyson, and it's *my* turn now ?". Arn Anderson looks like a grandpa. I wonder how Barry is doing. JJ Dillon has aged a lot less than all the others. Love how they showed the less of Flair possible.

I sure hope Rock is not coming back for another match against Cena, because it didn't feel like a feud that would need to keep on. I don't think it felt *that* special to be honest, and the fact that it was in Miami made it better than it was. It was the right spot, the right time. Another match would not work that well, especially now that we've already seen everything that there is to see. And I don't see the big deal of Cena losing. People bought the PPV to see the Rock. People in the stadium came to see the Rock. WWE sent people home very happy, I think that's more important than anything else. Is John Cena really hurt right now ? I don't think he is hurt one bit. It was a big match, a big moment, the audience got what they paid for, that's a big positive. Cena's profile won't change because he did a job to the Rock at Mania in Miami. I just wished they had the balls to have Cena go heelish on Rock, that would have been fresh and really awesome to watch in this setting.

The issue is that WM is mostly a nostalgia show now. Has been for years. Save for Punk vs Jericho, the entire WM card was built around Taker, Michaels, HHH and Rock. The rest was an afterthought. Since when did Wrestlemania undercards not suck? Well, that's true, but my point was that Mania has been built around nostalgia matches only for the last few years. Flair's retirement. Michaels vs Taker. Michael's retirement. Rock coming back. HHH vs Taker. Now the name Lesnar is being thrown around, whatever that's worth, and he's nowhere near as big of a star Meltz think he is as far as wrestling goes. He's another guy from the past.

The issue is that WM is mostly a nostalgia show now. Has been for years. Save for Punk vs Jericho, the entire WM card was built around Taker, Michaels, HHH and Rock. The rest was an afterthought.

I know it fit, but I was fearing the match would go into complete soap opera territory after the Taker/HHH debacle. As it was in the context of the match, and since it didn't go into soap opera territory (I mean, with "WWE movie dialogues"), yeah, it was ok.

It was complete shit. I watched a Terry Funk vs Abby match from MLW that made more sense that this crap. It was hilarious as soon as the soap opera kicked in though. And the constant references to the cage as being "demonic" when really, it had zero effect on the match at all.

Oh, thanks. I watched Cena vs Punk from SummerSlam last year but I didn't realized then for whatever reason.

Agreed. When Jericho went into "Your father, your sister" early on, I was like "oh, no, they're ruining this match", but he really didn't do anymore of this and went straight into wrestling. Didn't feel like a self-conscious epic either, just a hard-thought title match. The lack of kicking out of finisher left and right surely helped.

Nothing was funnier than Shawn's "dramatic" acting.

Ok, my yearly dose of WWE. This is the first time I actually the event in full in years, only FFind during the women match and the eye and hear gouging musical parts. Seamus vs Bryan. Ok. WWE still sucks. Orton vs Kane was decent for what it was, but still pretty much a nothing match. Orton is the worst DDP ever, and Kane is still Kane. Dull. Big Show vs Cody Rhodes I enjoyed a bit more far Show kicking Cody's ass, but really, Cody worksa bit on Show's leg, Show gets up, sells nothing, wins it. Ok. Whatever. HHH / Taker was laughable. It worked for the live crowd, but as a wrestling match, it was the drizzling shit. Punch, kick, terribly stiff chair shots, god-awful "emotionnal acting" (I guess that's Shawn's gimmick since the hilarious "I'm sorry Ric" line), bad soap opera and kicking out of finishers. I actually enjoyed it as I would enjoy a really bad movie. No near falls worked because it was all very predictable. Just stupid on every level, including the sledgehammer shots which should kill a man. Taker's intro was the best part, but nowhere near as great as the awesome Johnny Cash intro he got last year. I guess the über stiff chair shots were a way to make up for the lack of bladejob, although HHH did juiced a bit. Anyway, that was stupid, but at least we won't hear about how it was a ***** classic at least. Team Johnny vs Team Teddy was junk until the final segment with the dives and comedy. I'm not following the product, but as soon as that girl came in the ring, I knew she was screwing Ryder. I was "swerved" by the fact that only turned heel after teh match, but still, saw the finish come from a hundred miles. Chris Jericho vs CM Punk. As CM Punk used Living Colour for a long time now ? Anyway, that's another reason why he doesn't look like all the other WWE clones, he's got an actual good music theme instead of generic modern bullshit. Enjoyed this a lot, thought it was really good. A bit sloppuy at times, but that's Jericho for you, who hasn't changed on that matter. Really good stuff, but like it's been said, not much heat because the crowd was drained after Taker vs HHH. Well, Triple H did it again. But this was the WWE match I enjoyed the most in ages. Rock vs Cena : enjoyed it as well until the sharpshooter sequences which killed quite a bit of momentum I thought. The following STF sequence didn't help, as the match really didn't need two horribly applied submission holds back to back. I thought it was 5 minutes two long and too much kicking out of finishers, which made it predictable. The last near fall really worked though, as Cena picking up Rock after the crossbody and giving him his finisher looked like it could really be the finish. I thought Rock winning was nice, hell, it's WM in Miami, and The Rock is the only reason why they'll make a good number. I did feel like the match could have been so much more if they had more balls and had Cena work heelish. He would have been fantastic in this role I think, and the heat would have been nuclear. Dull-ass modern WWE, no risk taken, ever. Outside of that, good match and spectacle, exactly what I was expecting from Rock and Cena at WM. Anyway, this is not gonna get me back at watching WWE anytime soon, but I enjoyed the last too match quite a bit, I enjoyed watching the Rock, and I had a good laugh during Taker vs HHH, although I'm sure it was not the reaction intended. Undercard was just nondescript and dull, as always.

Well, that too, although it is a problem when you had Bret Hart executing a terrific looking sharpshooter on WWF TV for the past 6 years when Rock did it. The Rock sharpshooter does look like crap anyway you slice it. But then, what you said is true, once the audience is trained to accept it as it is, and if it works, well. See also : Tenryu's enzuigiri.

Well, with those links, I can't see the difference either.

Very wrong exemple. But I know that was at attempt at being a smart alec, so whatever... I'm done.

I mean as a health and social issue, heavy drinking is way worse. As far as Ric goes, being the partier that he is, I don't see what the issue would be to see him light a few up between shots of vodka for a bunch of women in line for Space Mountains. That's what I meant.

Good luck with that. I'm sure there are some matches on tapes somewhere, as wrestling was pretty big on TV in the 50's I think, but nothing has showed up anywhere so far. I would love to see if there are some Lino Ventura matches on tape. Bon courage pour le français !

I really enjoyed Dan's posts, recommanding matches and giving some explanation about the style. Yet, as I happened to stumble onto Vampiro's matches recently, it came to my thoughts that he and Konnan share some of the same "qualities", being foreigner, sucking in the ring and having been big draws in Mexico in the last decade. So, seeing this is a "Beginner's Guide to Lucha", I though well, why not ask *there* since it's a question about lucha. Silly me. And hell, I even said it was probably a stupid question. I'm pretty sure if anyone asked John in a "Beginner's Guide to All Japan" why Wajima was pushed, or why Gary Allbright didn't worked the same style as the main event guys, he would have gladly answered. But hey, people have to bitch about everything I guess. Don't worry, I won't interfere anymore, I'll just read. I probably had a Canek question somewhere, but I'll think twice before asking.

Well, anyone interested in All Japan and not knowing much about it has the right to ask why Wajima was pushed, yes. Vampiro and Konnan were important figures of 90's lucha, I don't see what the issue is asking questions about them.