El-P

Vince Russo.

Toyota screaming is the most overstated fact ever at this point. And yes, most joshi wrestlers screamed a lot.

Come on. Let it die already.

Seriously, what the fuck does that mean anyway ? "Oh, I'm a MAN because I take pain like a MAN and don't take painkiller." What a bunch of self-righteous bullshit. I sure am a huge pussy because when I got some teeth canal drained, I got some shots of novocain. Not to mention that when the effect goes away, you sure get your share of pain anyway afterward. Sure, things were better when all things were natural, when 3 out of 4 baby died before getting one year old, when women died while giving birth, and when life expectancy was about 45 years old. Drugs are bad, mm'kay...

In his shoot interview, Barry Horowitz said that he wasn't a jobber, he "put people over and made them look good". I guess the name would be jobber-with-offense.

The Rock is seen as a samoan. I know it's absurd anyway, since there's no such thing as race, but that's the way it is, he's really more seen as part of the samoan family than anything else. So anyway, WWE had to wait for the 2000's to have a black champion. I don't think Flair could have been what he's been if he had been black, sadly.

Booker T, when he was doing the King Booka gimmick. The Rock, if you count a half-Samoan as black. Bobby Lashley, if you count the ECW belt as a "world title". Booker got the World Title ? Ok then, so he's the only one. The Rock doesn't count. And the ECW belt was not even on the level of the old IC belt.

I don't get fixated on them, they just make me cringe every time around.

I guess that's a believability issue in the sense I have to believe it can actually hurt his opponent. Or at least look good in a pro-wrestling aesthetic sense, which is not the case. When I hear the grating "educated feat" line from the announcers and have to watch *those* kicks, I just roll my eyes. Pretty much. I know I won't get Kawada or Aja Kong stiff kick here. It's not the issue. I just want them to look good like any wrestling spot. A top rope elbow is not believable, but a great looking tope rope elbow is a great spot. I don't like Stan's kicks not because they aren't realistic stiff kicks, but because they look ridiculous. Probably, yes. I don't know, but at the very least Stan not looking like a goof doing them would be a beginning. On the same show Muta debuted the handspring elbow. Totally ludicrous and "unbelievable", but looks awesome in a pro-wrestling setting.

I don't care that it's not believable. 99% of wrestling offense is not believable. My issue with it is that it looks terrible and damages my enjoyment of the match I'm watching whenever Stan gets on offense with it. It's the cringeworthy minute of every MX match.

If you train the audience to buy shit, they will eventually buy it. That doesn't change the fact it's shit. The fact that the audience at the time bought them doesn't change the fact that Stan's kick look like shit. Same thing works with pretty much anything, music, movie, TV... food... ideology... Wrestling is about manipulation of the audience to begin with, so with that line of thought, the only good wrestling is what gets over and makes money. Well, that's not what I'm looking for when I watch it...

You know how to make Stan Lane's "martial arts" kick even worse ? By debuting the Samoan Swat Team, Ranger Ross and The Great Mota (yeah, that how it was spelled) in a few weeks span. The Michael Hayes heel turn was long overdue, he was so boring as a face. The announcing team of Ross and Hayes is just great, they have a true chemistry together, and Hayes was as great in that role as he was during the UWF days.

He's a sumo. Sumo don't jump high. Funny, I never really noticed Misawa adjusting his tights like I did with Choshu. The biggest offender in that respect was Davey Boy. He would do it all the time. Flair putting the figure four on the wrong leg was a lot worse though, since he was supposed to be *the* specialist of the hold.

I don't think so. How many territories had black stars headlining apart from Mid-south ? I can't see a black wrestler becoming Ric Flair in the 80's. There wasn't even a place for black transitionnal champion, like Butch Reed probably could have been. Hell, WWE still never had a black world champion, or am I so out of the loop I missed something ?

unless grumpy old Tenryu in the late 90s and 00's started actually connecting to the skull a lot more than "prime" Tenryu did. John He didn't.

Past your prime doesn't equal bad. Windham was probably past his prime has early as 93, because of injuries and lazyness. But he was so good that it didn't matter that much, when he wanted, he could still go. Even fat and old, Windham was still better than shitloads of wrestlers. I'd argue that in 1988, Windham was the best wrestler in the US.

The People's elbow was a retarded spot, but The Rock's perfect execution of it made it shitloads of fun. Lane's kicks were just god awful, looking like it couldn't hurt a dead fly. And it's not even like looking in retrospect after years of stiff kicks. It's just awful looking. I do think Lane is getting a free pass for being part of the MX. The MX still were a great team involved in great matches, but it's like Kawada & Taue at the time Taue sucked. I cringe when Lane makes a comeback or an offense flurry with the shitty kicks. Tenryu-zigiri looked "heavy", which fit the frame of my beloved Tenryu. Plus he's a former sumo guy, and a former sumo doing enzuigiri, even shitty ones, still rules (plus the japanese audience was used to sloppy enzuigiris after years of Inoki and Fuji) . And really, despite the questionnable enzuigiris, Tenryu is a great worker. Lane just doesn't strike me as particulary good. Didn't matter since the tag formula kinda hide that fact (maybe a good reason why Lane never worked solo), especially when you're working with guys like Eaton or Pritchard. I won't say a word about Keirn, I don't like the Fabs.

That's the only thing great about Stan Lane, this spot is ridiculously good.

Agreed. Stereo moves are awesome if hit right. If not, they can be pretty brutal.

I know, but he was trying to say that basically nobody besides JBL used a clothesline for a finisher in America, and that's simply not true. Hansen did plenty enough work in the States over the decades, and probably wrestled more matches in America than in Japan, we just don't have much footage of a lot of his earlier stateside stuff. Come on. Stan Hansen equals Japan in everyone's mind. That's where he made his name, that's where he made his money, he's more a japanese worker than an american worker. His cup of tea in WCW and ECW in the 90's don't mean anything, he was a guy from Japan working for a while in the US. And this is in Japan where he made the "Lariato!" famous. And in the last 30 years, very few people have used a clotheline as a finisher, and many who did quickly changed for another finisher for the remainder of their career (Hogan, except when he goes to Japan; Windham, got to the superplex). When JBL did it it was basically a throwback to Hansen, and it worked only because it was super stiff. You can argue that Hacksaw Duggan used it for a while in WWF, but that's it, he used a Brody-like knee in WCW. Anyway, it's nothing very important either.

For the cup of tea he had there, but Stan is mostly a japanese worker. Maybe in the AWA, I'm not sure. Still, Axe Bomber was over in NJ mostly. Maybe. But I've seen him more using a belly-to-belly as a finisher. Indy guys don't matter. Ok, in the big two of the modern era, that leaves us with Windham for a year and a half before he choosed to use the superplex, Stan Hansen whenever he worked in WCW, and JBL who was a fourth rate Stan Hansen wananbe. See a pattern here, those cowboys sure like to use lariats.

And probably the only one I can think off in the last 30 years. JBL stiffed the fuck out of his opponents with his lariat.

Lawler using a thousand punches bothers me. Liger using a shotei as a finisher doesn't. Once it's accepted as a finisher and looks good, everything can be a good finisher. It's all about perception. Plus it's Japan where a lariat has been a finisher for years, which would be unthinkable in the States. Really don't have a problem with it. Funny fact, I just watched a squash match from Dan Spivey from WCW TV in 89. He used three powerbombs in a row. Not one. Three. The announcers had no name for it. They didn't sell it like it was immediate death. And it wasn't the finisher of the match, which ended up being a weak side slam a la-Big Bossman. Surrealistic. The heart punch sucks. It's neither realistic nor cool looking nor brutal looking nor anything, it usually looks like shit and is used mostly by supremely shitty wrestlers.

Well, "a punch as a finisher" is better than "a punch as 90% of your offense" to me.

Precisely why it sucks. Wrestling isn't better when it's more "real". Who said it was ? But I just don't see what the problem is with it being a finisher. I'd rather have this as a finisher than say, a fucking legdrop. So, Jerry lawler using 169 punches in one match is great, but a short stocky japanese guy in a demon superhero costume slapping people around isn't ? Come on...