El-P

I disagree. Thinking too much about anything doesn't make it serious, it makes it absurd most of the time. See, that criticism makes sense. Don't agree with all of it, but I understand it. Cool. That's what I mean. And I don't expect everyone will agree with me. Matt seems to think they were great and makes a pretty good job pimping them. I'm cool with that. Overly excitable guy with tassles is too over the top for wrestling? Are you sure you've actually seen wrestling before? You're not reading what I wrote. I said the Demos, who were supposed to be this killer team, were essentially as goofy as Brutus Beefcake to me. I also said that was probably perfect for the 80's WWF product marketed toward kids. That said, not everyone in WWF was goofy as Brutus or the Demos. Well, most of them were, but that's why the product wasn't that great.

I think I mentionned LCO a few pages back, but nowhere cares about joshi anymore. I would easily put LCO as a top 10 team ever.

Everything was pretty much awesome here, from start to finish, with Lawler great promo, to the Doink match which was really good (I hate that this was Borne's last accomplishment as Doink, the face turn killed the character), to the super stiff brawl with Lawler, to the post match. One of the greatest angle/match the WWF has booked in the 90's. I loved it from day one.

Yep. Perfect was a lame face. And really both are overrated, and them having the same kinda style (overbumping for the face, weak on offense) just made it impossible to have a really good match together. Michaels had a way better serie with Tatanka, and Perfect worked much better with Doink.

Random fact, it was originally Jim Neidhart's theme when he went solo in 1991. That's why your hear those hammer hitting an anvil sounds. Then it was used for the short lived New Foundation with Jim & Owen, then for Owen solo before he got hooked with Koko B Ware. I thought it was lame the Bodies didn't get to have an original theme. Reeked of WCW. I think it was rushed a bit, but as far as action goes, it was clearly one of the best tag of the 90's in the WWF. The Bodies were just great in this, too bad the Steiner didn't give them a little bit more.

That's more of a Japanese corporate culture deal. Whenever one of their companies makes a huge fuckup, the president or CEO often resigns in shame. Even if they had nothing to do with the problem, the idea is that the leader should always be held accountable for any shit that goes down on their watch. See the president of the company that owned the nuclear power plants for a recent example. Yep, happens all the time. This could be big, after the same kinda scandals in sumo last year. This shit doens't fly anymore now that it's getting out there, the repercussions could be severe for the company. I have no idea in what shape they are at this point.

In essence ? No, not really. 99,99999999% of it is pure crap. Is that more laughable than say, a clown, guys fighting to get a ball and taking it to the other side of a stadium, or guys running for 100 meters like idiots, or guys pretending to be spies and saving the world and people watching it happen in a large dark room with a big screen etc etc etc... There's nothing more or less laughable in wrestling per say than in surfing, singing rock'n roll, collecting stamps or fucking doggystyle. Everyone of those things, if you think too much about it, can be seen as "laughable". Life is pretty laughable actually. So, you really don't see the difference between Demolition and the Road Warriors ? Really ? In term of what they projected during matches and interviews, how they worked, what they did with other workers ? Well, you're the one not very observant. In the realm of 80's US pro-wrestling, I find the Demos a bit laughable as "kick-ass monsters" compared to guys like the RW, the PoP (yet another RW clone team) or guys like Doom like I said. Why ? Because of their gimmick, the way it was protrayed and their work in the ring which didn't project the supposed ultra-violence a team named Demolition should project. Jingus mentionned the reaction he had the first time he saw the Demos, well my experience is the opposite with the RW. I didn't know them (no access to NWA in France), and the first time the LOD showed up on WWF TV decapitating a jobber, they made Demos look like two chubby clowns with weak ass stombs and double axhandles in my mind. And watching in retrospect today, the Demos's offense just seems weak. I'm not saying they were a bad team, it would be absurd, but to me the were just that, competent, nothing special, as pretty much as goofy as Brutus Beefcake. Not everything was as goofy as Brutus Beefcake in 80's WWF. Didn't need to be.

Actually, yes. 1/24/96 vs Mitsuya Nagai in RINGS. I know I was stunned when I watched the match and it turned out good. Tabe Tony Halme in RINGS ? Against Mitsuya Nagai ? That's random ! And it was *good* ? Amazing. I liked Borga's match with Jannetty at SummerSlam, but it was more a squash than anything else. I don't remember anything about his matches with Hashimoto.

So is porn. Doesn't mean it's for kids. I don't see how it's obectively laughable. When it's done right there's nothing laughable about it. At its best it's actually a pretty awesome form of entertainement. At its worst, it's hugely embarrasing unless you're part of a sub-culture-sub-group of fans like us who can find entertaining stuff in the worst WCW angle from 2000. I didn't say Demos were an expection, I said they were perfect for the cartoony environement of the 80's WWF, which was in itself mostly marketed towards kids.

Not really. The market for wrestling has never been excusively for kids before Vince Jr. decided that they needed to be a cartoon.

Coming from a guy who said "1.Demolition offense is actually awesome. If you don't like Demo clubbering fuck you.", this is pretty weak. And really, Demos clubbering looked weak. It wasn't exactly the Road Warriors taking your head off, the Steiners throwing you around, the Moondogs stuffing your brain with objects, The Barbarian squashing your nose with a big boot, Doom beating the crap out of you ou the Sheeperders making you bleed. Their interviews were goofy as hell, they didn't look that menacing. Was that a good gimmick for the cartonny 80's WWF, yes that was. But really, they are the John Cena's of tag team, once you're above 12 years old, Demolition's gimmick is a bit laughable.

Well, I must admit, you're making a really good job at pimping them.

I'm not gonna dive into a long Demo argument because of lack of time, will and interest about the topic to be honest, although Matt's post is very interesting. Just wanted to point out this : I couldn't agree more. The "he plays his role well" argument as a mark of greatness is something that has bothered me for years, most notably since the absurd Mark Henry pimping years ago. Being competent at what you're supposed to do doesn't mean you're a great wrestler. You're good at what you're supposed to do, well, that's the damn minimum you should deliver. If you don't "play your role well", you shouldn't even be employed. Greatness is just another matter entirely. I said it, I thought the Demos were a decent team. They played their role well. Doesn't mean that's an act I find particulary compelling nor very entertaining to watch. Back to tag team wrestling and P-G13.

Agreed, and well put. Watching a Demos match, I don't by them as being those terrific brawlers who destroy opponents. They don't project anything violent in their matches, because the moves they use just suck and are boring. Once in a while you get some good stuff because it's freaking Bill Eadie under the hood, but still, most of the time, Demos on offense put me to sleep if they don't have a really quality team against them, which they had a lot thanks to the deep talent pool in tag teams in the WWF at that time.

The issue with the Steiners is that they just weren't anything special as a team. Yeah, they threw big bombs, which was cool. And that's it. The infamous Steiner vs Sasaki & Hase match at the Tokyo Dome is one of the most overrated match ever. For someone watching the entire NJ TV form that year, this mtach just isn't anything special at all. A bunch of big spots for no reasons basically, a fun sprints with bombs left and left. The infamous Steiners vs Luger & Sting from GAB, same stuff. Actually, Hase & Sasaki vs Rick Steiner & Scott Norton a few months later was much better because of the new dynamic of the match with a monster like Norton, which allowed them to actually tell a more dramatic story instead of just throwing spots left and right. Steiner vs Nasty Boys = Steiner throwing Nasty Boys around, again, nothing special. I can't think of a great Steiner match. I can think of plenty fun Steiner matches which were all the same thing, a collection of spots. The Steiner were the new Road Warriors, but I don't think they ever had the matches the RW had in Crockett or AJ. Way overrated as a team. And like Dylan said, they did very few actual teamwork. I can probably accept the fact PG-13 were a better team than the Steiners without much problem.

I agree they should have done it eventually at a IYH PPV, but Vader should have killed a JTTS at WM. I remember how they built Ludvig Borga at SummerSlam 93 by having him kill Marty Jannetty. Jannetty made him look like a god. Vader should have killed a guy who could make him look huge and brutal, like Bob Holly, instead of feuding with a fat guy from the get-go. Of course, him being thrown into a random 6 man in which he had to sell for old Jake Roberts and bump for Ahmed Johnson made things even worse. Way to make him non-special already. What was the reason for turning it into a 6 man ? Was that because Yoko's health was getting bad (getting way too fat for his own good) at this point ?

Vader bumped huge too. Hell, Vader bumped more than any fat guy, ever. Vader had too things not working for him in WWF : 1/ big WCW star and not Vince's creation. Bad. 2/ not working the lighter WWF style, more suited with the stiffer southern or japanese stye. Bad. Add the Klic influence, Taker bitching, Michaels wanting to work with Sid instead, and Vader was doomed from the get-go. First feud was Yokozuna, a bigger guy than he was. He sold for Gorilla Mansoon's chops. Just awful booking from the get-go. Vader never had a chance in WWF.

The "childhood memories" is really the worst current argument. I rather just be called an idiot than have my argument dismissed with mind reading bullshit. I was not refering to you per say, nor anyone on that thread actually, but since you brought it up I was just giving my own perspective about why the Demos are still universally loved by a large portion of the wrestling fans, that's all. Because I can't wrap my head about what makes them even a *good* team. To me they are a RW rip-off composed of two workers who were better under every other incarnations. I don't think the Demos sucked, I don't think they wre a particulary good team either. I went through the thread Matt D linked to, I have seen most of these matcehs already, and none struck me as particulary good exemple of Demolition being a great team. Sorry.

Not wanting to derail things, but I fail to see how Demolition was even a *good* team. Was Bill Eadie a good worker ? Yes. Was Barry Darsow a decent worker ? Yes. But the Demolition gimmick which forced them to do (sorry if I have to use the godforsaken "moves" arguments) shitty punches and double hammer on the back limited them a lot. Darsow was better as a Russian, Eadie was a lot better as the Masked Superstars. To me the Demolition love is strictly a product of childhood memories, I would take pretty much any other WWF 80's team that doesn't involve Volkoff, Andre or Jim Powers over them. Yes, they had a few good matches with great team like the Rockers and really good team like the Hart Foundation. Big deal.

Vader had a perfectly good career in Japan after the WWF debacle. Main event matches, big titles. Didn't fall from grace at all.

I thought about Yatsu too. He was still decent in AJ in the last years though, but then vanished after he left. Yatsu was so great at one point.

Waiting for Dan to tell us how much Los Gringos Locos sucked. But yeah, most people, including me, haven't seen much of LGL. BTW, I know Lucha is mainly trio based, but I guess there are tons of tag teams still who could, well, give PG13 a hard time, no ?

PG-13, top 20 tag team of all time. Jamie Ice and Wolfie D, top 20 indy wrestlers in 2011. But seriously, I'm actually enjoying this thread a lot. Keep on coming and argue about the merits of tag teams. From the joshi ranks : Marine Wolves, Crush Gals, Toyota & Yamada, LCO, Oz & Kansai, Oz & Cuty, HamaKINO, Juming Bomb Angels... there are more.

Yep. She was on a TNA PPV the other week, and now... this ? And then gone. Yep, I never understood why Bundy did nothing nowhere after WM II.

Andy will probably never amount to anything in WWE anyway, let's be honest. So, bump for a slap from Mr. MacMahon and take a stunner will probably end up being his most famous moments in the company.