El-P

I won't get dragged into an LCO debate in 2011, but back then, LCO were mostly *loved* and pimped as a great team. Then there was a backlash (although some people on the DVDVR side always hated them), and these days I think pimping LCO is a "dated opinion". I guess. LCO in ARSION weren't used to their best ability (plus they had already peaked), but they still had that awesome bloody match with AyaKINO in late 1999. I loved LCO more than most wrestlers, and I take some credit for popularizing the acronym (although I didn't used it first).

LCO.

Brian looks *old* these days. I mean, he's 41, and he looks a good 10 years older. Still, I would crack a smile for one last "Oh you didn't know ?".

I know. I was talking about "John Cena tm WWE Universe character", not John Cena the human being. That's how he comes off to me with promos like these. Either self-hating gay, either retarded. So far Rock just murdered him seven ways to Sunday. Of course, WWE writers suck.

John Cena *must be* an insecure self-hating gay. Or he's just retarded.

Of course. I doubt Woman will ever go in although she would deserve it on her career only, but that would open a can of worms the WWE won't touch with a ten foot pole. Chyna will never go in for obvious reasons although she was a hot act for a while. Sable, well, unless they work something out with brock at some point, I doubt it, but she could eventually. Liz and Luna, I doubt they ever will. Madusa has no shot. Trish really was more important than Sunny to the WWE I think. But hey, like Loss said, it's all about marketing. I wonder who can induct Sunny though...

Well, thanks for nothing then Tammy.

Possibly.

In a kayfaybe sense, Sunny is one hell of a weak inductee. She managed some weak tag team champs (Body Donnas - Godwinn - Smoking Gunns being arguably the "strongest" of the three") in an era where tag team belts meant pretty much zilch, and.... that's pretty much it. Sure, she was the "most downloaded personnality" on AOL for a cup of tea or two, but she really didn't draw anything for WWF, as Sable was really the first female who became a big star during the Attitude Era (although she did suck and was one of the thing I hated the most at that time). Really, what Sunny did in a kayfabe or even in a real sense to warrant that ? Well, you can answer me "Koko B. Ware", I know this HoF means jack shit, but still, when you think about it, Sunny was part of WWF for what, 3 years, was the manager of a JTTS for the first 6 months, then managed a few tag teams when nobody cared, and then was doing the Hotline and some non descript stuff on TV like referring lucha midget matches. And that über short and useless stint with LOD 2000. That's not exactly Sensationnal Sherri level here. When I think of Sunny, the first thing that comes to my mind is "wasted potential".

May - June 98 _ I don't know if the felt pressure from the big rise of the WWF post WM 14, but they sure shook things up on top to try to refresh the product. Scott Hall turning on Kevin Nash. Giant turning on Sting. Luger joigning the Wolfpack. Then Sting joigning the Wolfpack. And DDP finally getting to a well deserved main-event spot. The nWo Hollywood vs Wolfpack feud seemed nice at first especially in a Hogan vs Nash dynamic, as Nash was getting crazy over, but it quickly turns into dullsville, as Nash gets back into the tag team ranks with Sting of all people (after Sting defeats the Giant in a single match to win the titles they had won together before, yeah, the booking is getting really bad there). _Luger was still crazy over while not doing anything of note, so putting him in the Wolfpack gave the fans a reason to pop for him. And did they pop when he joined the afction, amazing reaction. The problem is that Luger doing gang signs and trying to act cool next to Kevin Nash and Konnan is just bad. Then there's Sting, who loses the mystique he buit for the last two years by basically reverting back to his surfer days character, with a little "nWo" edge to it. The crowds are going crazy for him, so it's no big deal. But damn he looked silly in that red facepaint, like a giant radioactive sunburn of his face. This guy should have remained his finisher the Lobster Deathlock. _Eric Bischoff's ego is out of control at this point. Challenging MacMahon to a match on PPV was jaw-dropping. SUre, it was a great heel promo, amazing actually, but it made Vince look like the babyface since Eric is such an obnoxious bitch, which was, well, retarded. Then there's Bischoff "breaking Savage's leg" and getting Liz. Ugly. And the killer is the debut of one of the greatest bad segment on Nitro, the Eric Bischoff Show, the godawful Late Show parody. Liz looking hot on the couch was the only redeeming quality this awful segments had. Bischoff just lost it completely at that point. _the undercard still got three great heels : Jericho, Eddie and Raven. As the first two still have some comedic reliefs, Raven is such a whiny asshole you just want to slap him, he was great at being a straight, truly detestable heel in a company with too much "cool" or "comedic" heels. The Kanyon program just isn't very good thus far, the worst Raven feud I can think of at this point. Mortis had so much potential, it was stupid on their part to kill that character, and Kanyon isn't getting over very well at this point. The Eddie vs Chavo feuds was so good for so long, but then Chavo goes into straight comic relief with Pepe, and that is clearly not as good. Eddie is still gold. Jericho is just amazing week end and week out. _Ugh, Stevie Ray is back, and he's screwing with his brother. Makes sense, but the guy sucks in the ring to an unbelievable degree. Public Enemy are back too, more bad matches. _The Goldberg phenomenon is getting crazy, but I don't find it very interesting unless he's fighting someone with some value, as most of his wins he got over straight jobbers in an era were jobbers match don't exist anymore. Plus he's been exposed working longer, more competitive match with Saturn as a guy who, well, can't really work outside of hitting a few big spots. _Bret Hart as a heel is about a thousand times better. Good interviews, believable, plays a manipulative frustred guy, it works really good. Too bad the booking don't make in any favors. He goes from teaming with Hogan against Savage and Piper (a very forgetable match built by really good promos) to screwing with Benoit to screwing with Booker T, the TV champ. Poor Bret. _DDP clearly had already hit is peak in 97, and it shows as he's getting closer and closer to the "cheesy" factor here, with bad promos and bad catchphrases (who can forget Hollywood "Scum" Hogan). The DDP & Karl Malone vs Hogan and Rodzilla (what a stupid nickname) build is just corny. _The Wolfpack music theme becomes absolutely annoying after just a few weeks. _Alex Wright returning, good stuff as the guy could wok his ass off, was a really good douchebag and his team with Disco Inferno was undercard randomness gold. Especially when Magnum Tokyo gets involved. And yeah, it's that period of the year when Tokyo, Shiima Nobunaga, Little Dragon and the other Ultio Dragon student get some time on TV. Fun times. _El Vampiro debuts, and doesn't get over at all. _The begin to tease the return of Flair by having Benoit do the 4 Horsemen sign, and McMicheal coming back. I have no idea if by this time they had already settle things with Ric, where on the way too, or if that was just careless on their part, taking the risk Flair wouldn't come back.

Glad to know he's still a black hole. Wait, I said open mind. Well, but unless Orton dramatically improved over the last few years, my opinion of this guy is already pretty much established. An act that look fake as hell, and a rather terrible and boring worker. DDP should get royaties...

GREAT point. There was definitely a certain 'gritty' quality to the show circa '97-'01. Now it's all so bloodless, and I don't just mean the 'no blood' policy! I've been saying this for a few years now. This is a big part of why I haven't been able to watch WWE product each time I tried my hand at it. I'll watch WM with an open mind though, it will be the first WWE card I watch since WM two years ago. I admit the reason that pushes me to give it another try is The Rock.

Two words : sumo wrestler. Sumo wrestlers usually have an odd way to move in contrast to what we're used to in pro-wrestling. Taue was the same way.

I'm all for a "Tenryu was awesome" trend. I always thought Tenryu was way underrated and that he was clearly one of the greatest workers ever, with an amazing longevity and diversity. I never understood why he was not considered a great worker for so long. He never was a great mechanic, but he had so many other great things in his work.

I agree.

Not to go off in a tangeant, but did you enjoy Malenko in ECW ?

Is there anyone else out there with the same rep that Stevens has, but of whom there isn't much footage either ?

Of course. I was only replying to this :

I'll deflate the whole thing because we're both too old and quotations kill me too. I agree with all of this. We both agree that UWF-i's booking sucked. I dunno. My only point was about the so-called "realism", or lack thereof, of Takada, and shoot-style as a whole. Well, I disagree, but we'll save it for another day when I'll had rewatched old Nobuhiko. It's often a mistake though. More and more I try to know nothing or the bare minimum about the movie I'm going to watch anyway. Sometimes I do have high expectations if the director is someone I really like a lot, but I try to keep them vague most of the time. The less expectations I have, the most open my mind is. Now, it doesn't mean I'll enjoy the movie, but I try not to have any specific expectations about what I watch. Well, sometime they know exactly what the audience expect, and they give it to them, and it works. And most of the time, those movies are shitty because it's all about the lowest common denominator. The widest common expectations. I agree UWF-i run into tons of problem, but I don't think Takada's "lack of realism" was one of them. Choshu killed them dead, but their fate had been sealed even before the NJ deal I believe, and Anjoh's goofball attitude didn't help. You misundertood what I meant by "gimmick". I repeat, I never said Fujiwara's ability or Tamura's ability was a gimmick. I never even compared the merits of each workers Dan. I only said judging Takada on whether he was "realistic" or not wasn't a valid opinion to me. I said many times that I should watch some Takada back and see how it holds up with me. I never said I haven't watched any Fujiwara in years though. Well, I don't understand how he was more realistic. Tamura was more realistic. Khosaka was more realistic. But Fuji ? I don't see it. Anyway... I remember an excellent match he had with Tamura. But anyway, UWF-i booking sucked, I agree with that. They were never able nor willing to push the natives beyond Takada. Yamazaki, Sano and Tamura deserved better. The style in itself, I had no problem with it. Undercard matches with Tamura, Sano, Yamazaki, Kakihara, Sakuraba, Anjoh, those gaijins whose names I forgot, Takada's epic battle on top, goofy pro-style gaijins like Tenta and Severn showing up. Lot to love in UWF-i. I guess, but it's a criticism I don't get. Indeed, and that was my whole point, so I suggest we give it a rest. I said it about a thousand times, I'm not even arguing about that because I haven't watched Takada in ages. The whole thing was the "realism" point which to me sounds kinda ridiculous. Yep. I wonder why matwork became important. I wonder if it has anything to do with Benoit or if it's just a reaction against most of the dominant highspots late 90's styles. I'll check it out. I love Elephant. Very important movie to me.

They do.

Several boards which have long gone now, DVDVR, tOA, and private discussions with the Quebrada bunch. As soon as I got online, the four names I learned who were pimped as these awesome wrestlers were Liger (which I knew because I had access to some NJ earlier in the decade), Misawa, Kawada and Jumbo.

I guess Lawler got forgotten in the 90's then, and his WWF years when he became a joke in the ring surely didn't help. The fact that territory footage was both not the most popular thing and not the easiest thing to get your hand on back then contribued to bury him in the ashes of wrestling history while Flair still being active and on the forefront of major national company kept him in the public eye. I think the fact Lawler was never bigger than a territorial star (and one that would travel to boot) didn't help his case either. I warmed up to Lawler although I'm not sure where I would put him against the other great US workers. The über punching makes him a bit tricky though, I have to be in the right mood to watch him. That said, people who watched wrestling the way we do in the 80's also thought Ted DiBiase was this awesome worker and Bruiser Brody was this great brawler.

The Jumbo as GOAT candidate talk did not start until the 99-00 era IRRC. I know for a fact that was not a prevalent viewpoint when I first started posting online. In fact I know of no one who made this argument when I first started to get really into the newsletter/online thing in 95-96. I don't know where you got that impression. From what I remember, Jumbo was already considered one of the greatest worker ever when I first stumble onto internet wrestling community. That was in early 98. And it was not a new thing from what I understood. From day one I always got the feel that Jumbo was accepted as being the Man, whomever I talked to, which prompted me to get the most famous Jumbo matches from the early 90's and late 80's right off the bat. I guess it just got confirmed as more footage from the 80's showed up, but to say Jumbo was not pimped as a GOAT before 99-00 just sounds wrong to me.

Really ? Dave would love that one. I have another question. What if Sakuraba had lost these fights ?

You're way snarkier than I am Dylan. I refrained myself from asking Dan if Sakuraba was a GOAT candidate due to his "work" (read : MMA fights) in PRIDE since he was a good "pure shoot-style" midcarder in UWF-i.