El-P

I agree. It was exactly that way for people who showed up on the internet during the Monday Night Wars. First thing I read back then was the Raw/Nitro reviews. Then I stumbled onto Quebrada/DVDVR and so on, and yes, the way things were presented is exactly what you said. I'm pretty sure tons of people got their first taste of puro with the Super J Cups, the IWA deathmatche tournament (thanks to ECW) and bought When Worlds Collide as their first (and often only) "lucha" tape. I don't think either. Now shitloads of wrestling is available in a snap of a finger, without even having to pay. It changes everything. When you can only buy a few tapes a month, you are very selective and follow the gospel of what's supposed to be great. This is gone, and this is better. I wish I was ten year younger in that sense, that would have saved my some serious money... If I had the passion I had ten years ago with the availability of wrestling now, I would get crazy. Totally agree. Availability of a wide range of wrestling from all eras and territory make things totally different. Bt like Loss said, it's a subculture of a subculture of a subculture.

This is mostly correct, but I'd expect Takada to drop more than the others. Most of the sifts are 'positive', that is, discovering the volume of greatness from great talents. Takada's case has really been obliterated over the years. Between the '80s sets and the increasing respect for shoot-style that wasn't UWFi, what support Takada had as a Top 5 type is now either going to shift to other shoot-stylists (ie. Fujiwara, Tamura, Han, maybe Yamazaki), or he'll just flat-out drop. I never really 'got' the case to begin with, and in recent years I think it's almost become a boogeyman. It's mentioned more my people who don't hold the opinion than by people who do. As an old shoot-style fan, I never though Takada was great at straight shoot-style. Don't get me wrong, I thought he was really good, but not *great* at working the style, but it was not what Takada was about. He was all about working pro-wrestling epics with opponents as varied as Vader, Maeda, Backlund, Tenryu and even stiffs like Allbright. I always thought Yamazaki was superior in shoot-style, but then again, Yamazaki is the great lost worker of the 90's. As far as RINGS goes, Tamura, Han and Khousaka are also vastly superior to Takada in the straight style. I wonder why Khousaka doesn't seem to be pimped as much as Tamura or Han BTW these days. Back then Tamura and Khousaka were linked together as the two great shoot-style workers. I guess RINGS was never really popular and people are discovering it today or something, because the fact that a top 5 shoot-style workers "shifting" toward Han and Tamura is rather amusing to me when these two were always at the top of the rankings to me as far as the style goes. I guess waching RINGS 12 years ago put me in a ultra small minority. I wonder what people think of Yamamoto.

I'm surprised to hear you say this, because you always strike me as "Oh, so this isn't liked anymore, when did THAT happen?" guy. Maybe that's unfair, I don't know. I guess that's what I'm projecting these days, maybe because I've been very vocals about trends. But really, looking at the big picture, and outside of the guys I mentionned, I don't see a big shake up. Guys like Tiger and Dynamite were already harshly criticizes twelve years ago by some people, so there weren't any big concensus on them, ever. Maybe I said what you mentionned a lot, but I do think I repeated it over and over again over the same two or three topics. Oles was the "pro-wrestling as figure skating" guy. Man, at some point I will really have to revisit Takada, because I don't remember him lacking emotions at all. This anti-Takada trend has been the oddest to me. Hearing that Takayama, in 96 no less, when he still kinda sucked (and really, Takayama was very overrated to me during his peak several years later) outworked Takada just boggles my mind. I dunno, I changed my minds before about workers I thought were good or bad, at this point I've heard so much about Takada that I just wonder what I would think of this guy now, after hearing all this criticism that doesn't seem to fit with the memories I have at all. Takda being stoïc ? He never struck me that way at all.

Well, at least he's consistent.

Just for the record, I always loved Backlund and thought he was better than *good*, and the WWF SC poll complete with watching tons of Backlund matches from the 70's and 80's convinced me that he was a great worker. So, I may be on the "He's overrating Backlund" wagon, but I've always been a fan, I just wasn't aware he had so many excellent matches in his prime. DiBiase surely never worked harder than he needed too, especially in Japan. Terry Funk as the best wrester ever ? I'm ok with that thought.

But that's really all about the style he worked within, it's hard to compare, just like lucha. It's so specific. You're not. I've been watching the whole ECW product last year, so I watched a good amount of Benoit, and I'm into WCW 98 these days, so I'm watching ton of Benoit, and it doesn't bother me at all nor does that affect my views of his work. I know it might seem odd, but that's the case.

Well, you know we don't always the same tastes, to say the least. Your list is really the first time I've seen Fujinami in a "greatest wrestler ever" talk though, that's interesting. I wonder if that's strictly a personnal thing from you, or if it's a new "popular" opinion than emerged with the NJ set (I haven't followed the discussions much) ? I've been aware of the Fujiwara craze for a long while, but Fujinami being mentionned in that list really surprised me.

Tamura and Volk Han were more than just "great matwork". In the confines of their styles, they're just the greatest workers ever. Volk Han got good match out of the shittiest of the shittiest, the name of the guy was Tariel I think, and he managed to get something actually exciting out of that guy. The anti-Takada trend is the most ridiculous ever. I can understand the anti-Tiger Mask trend, moreso because I never bought Tiger as a great worker to begin with, although it goes way too far. Lawler I've had the opportunity to see more of him, and the issue is that, well, if you can get past the fact that 99% of his offense was a punch, the rest of Lawler's work was great (selling, bumping, facials). But the punching is an issue though. I have no idea where he would stand compared to Bret or Flair. Tenryu is a strange case. I think some anti-Tenryu sentiment came from the infamous Jewett comp which tended to show that Jumbo carried Tenryu to the famous greatest match of the 80's. And the fact that Tenryu was dismissed because he worked too much with NJ heavies, whose style was considered inferior, and indy leagues, including FMW. To me, the more I watched Tenryu, the more it was obvious this guy was a great worker. Not the greatest mechanic, but a great worker. Not as great as Jumbo, Misawa, Kawada and Kobashi, but who was ? Fujinami was great in the 80's, and merely good at best in the 90's, whith a very dated and often boring style whenever he didn't feel like working hard. Don't see a case for Fujinami at all. Despite what Benoit did, there's no doubt he is one of the greatest ever. Too fucking bad. Michaels is a rather laughable candidate.

Really, with a few exceptions (Fujiwara, Lawler, lucha guys), I don't see that much of a shake up. The fact that no ones pays attention to joshi is just sad, but it doesn't change the fact that Hokuto, Aja, Jaguar, Chiggy and Devil were some of the greatest of all time. Even back in the late 90's, Volk Han and Tamura were considered GOAT by people who cared about the style. Benoit is dropped for non-wrestling reasons, while Dundee shows up. I have no notion of Race not being pimped anymore, when did that happen ? You forgot Backlund though, he's a guy that after the WWF polls and SC and DVDVR can easily be add to the list. Really, I don't see any major changes, most of these guys were already pimped 10 years ago as GOAT. Most notable additions in the US and Japan fields are Lawler and Fujiwara. Fujinami I never heard him massively pimped as a GOAT, and considering his 90's work, I don't see it at all. It makes me laugh that Fuji would be considered while Takada of all people would be dropped. Takada's career murders Fuji. And I like Fuji.

I remember Terri saying she basically came up with the Marlena character and look all by herself.

In US only because I can't really judge Japan or Mexico, 2 Cold Scorpio or Chris Benoit, easily.

Fat jokes incoming I guess...

I guarantee no-one in WCW was thinking this at the time. Hogan only dropped the strap to him so soon because he spied an opportunity to con the TBS execs into believing he drew the 40,000 fans to the Georgia Dome for Nitro and he was still the hottest act in wrestling. Maybe it's just me thinking in retrospect then. But still Goldberg was obviously the Man like Bobby Heenan would say over and over again (really, Heenan at this point was really bad, but he did a great job putting Goldberg over, it seems like he understood Goldy was the future of the company), and he was destined to get the big belt at some point, nothing could stop that from happening. Hogan dropping the belt on Nitro was also a desperate way to get the ratings win back. How stupid was that to waste the obvious big money match they had just to pop a rating... It's rather fascinating to revisit that era.

Never cared for Duggan that much. Terrible matches in WWF and the flag wearing gimmick is probably on top of gimmick I despise. His early Mid-South stuff is much better, mostly because of the stiff style which suited him, but "Duggan was really good in Mid South" is a urban legend to me, kinda like "Hogan was really good in Japan". Seems like a nice enough guy though, and probably one of the most down to earth guy in this business, which is probably why he's still alive today. Also one of the legit though guy you wouldn't fuck around. And major props for winning against cancer, that's always great to see. Who else is going in ? Was I daydreaming or did I heard Dave talk about Abdullah and Sunny ? Abby would a be a big shock to me, first time ever this guy would step foot in a WWE program.

That shit always cracked me up in gangsta rap lyrics. Yo Easy-E mothafuckin faggot, suck my dick. "No Cartman, if you put your penis in Butters' mouth, it means you are gay."

Dragon Gate seems fascinating. Wrestling marketed with gay overtones isn't anything new in Japan. AJW in the 80's was deep into lesbianism. Hell, LLPW has always been a total lesbian wrestling promotion.

It was just after he came out/it was known he was actually gay I didn't know that one. Ugh...

You really think a bunch a third grade gay jokes kept Cena's head out of the water ? Rocky killed him dead last week, and this makes him look as lame as he's been depicted to be. This brings my question for today : is John Cena the lamest big babyface of all time ? My answer would be yes in a heartbeat, as he just looks like a dork compare to Hogan, Rocky, Austin, Sammartino, Lawler. Some may argue Backlund was a lot dorkier, but it was during another era, and Backlund was a lot more goofy and bizarre than lame. Cena's character is just appalling if you're past 10. No shit ? Yay, more money wasting.

Yes, but it was in the 80's in southern USA. WWE is a worldwide public company. In 2011. Their Ace making fun out of his opponents by calling them "gay" is just wrong and retarded. And Log made great points about all of this being more harmfull than anything happening during the Attitude Era. They tell little kids that the bad guys are "gay" and that a girl who doesn't look anorexic is "fat" ? Really, fuck PC, it's just stupid. I dream about some progressive wrestling where the heel calls the babyface gay, only for the babyface to respond that yeah, maybe he is, and that he would gladly do him after beating him into the dirt. And you'd get the crowd chanting "fuck his ass" during the match. I know, I'm being crass, but still. Why "gay" jokes would be acceptable when "jew" ou "negro" jokes certainly wouldn't be ?

April 98 _finally two good main-event on Nitro, and as shocking as it seems, these are two Sting vs Kevin Nash matches for the WCW title. Sting finally shook up the rust, and Nash was more motivated than he basically ever was since coming into WCW. The fans were ready for a Nash face turn at this point, also he's clearly a tweener at this point, getting huge face reaction when he's confronting Hogan and heel heat when he's challenging Sting. But the writing was on the wall, and at least him showing motivation in the ring plus being really over made me look forward to the face turn. _Spring Stampede was the best PPV since Souled Out. Really solid undercard. Booker T is getting better, and they did an excellent job building him as a credible single champion. Amazing to think that in 1998, titles in WCW meant something, and the way you built a champion was easy and logical, give him the belt and have him defend it often in good matches and keep the title for a good amount of time. Sounds crazy... Same things goes for Jericho, who's little feud with "Prince Nakamaki" was good as a pug into the Jericho vs Malenko big feud. Piper & Giant vs Hogan & Nash, the bat match, sounded terrible on paper but actually was watchable and forwarded the Hogan/Nash split in a logical way, making Hogan look like a real scumbag. Raven stealing the US title from DDP and Savage getting the world title thanks to Nash kept things fresh. _and of course, the week after Spring Stampede was the worst booked since Starrcade 97. First they job Raven out of the US title to Goldberg, which was stupid. Raven was over and the belt was good to solidify him as a upper mid-card act. Goldberg didn't need the belt at all, plus it was obvious that he would go on to win the WCW belt soon enough at this point, so you fuck up Raven's push for nothing and you lock up a worthwhile belt around the waist of someone who obviously isn't going to lose it before he gets the world title. The you have the Hogan vs Savage match, which made no sense whatsoever. Piper wants to fuck with Hogan, so what does he do ? He makes a match with no DQ (which is good for Hogan since Savage can't protect his title by being DQed, plus Savage was injured, way to give Hogan another advantage), with "no run-ins allowed" (because run-ins are allowed usually ? What is Piper gonna do if a run-in occurs, dq someone in a no dq match ?And why is the Brutus with Hogan and interfering at will ? Where's Kevin Nash during the match ? Why is Bret Hart running-in to cost Savage the title ?). As bad as anything Russo booked to be honest, and Hogan getting the title back was just awful, setting the clock back nearly two years. The only good thing that came out of this was Bret heel turn, which at this point was a blessing since Bret as a face did nothing for 5 months, and Bret was much better as a heel anyway now. _They did a good job planting the seeds of Kanyon's storyline with Raven. As Raven makes a run in on DDP, "a fan" (Kanyon himself) just blast Raven from behind and gets taken down by security, and the announcers don't sell it at all since it's not supposed to be part of the show. Same things happens a few weeks later, Kanyon jumps on Kidman, and this time Schiavone ackwnoledge that a fan has jumped the ring but kinda laughs it off as he's arrested by the security. _Eddie Guerrero slapping Chavo around and Chris Jericho dedicating matches to the retired Dean malenko was gold. _Amazing how Hollywood Hogan went from the freshest and most exciting heel in wrestling into yet another tired Hogan cliché with Brutus Beefcake at his side in one year and a half. Nash is breaking up with nWo to form the Wolfpack with all the "cool" guys (first being Savage and Konnan) while Hogan kept the Brian Adams of the world, and you feel this is representative of the politics in the back. As Nash is getting way over as a cool face, Hogan is insecure as hell and keeps the title on himself but doesn't find a way to keep him fresh, resorting to his old ways (Beefcake, celebrity and soon enough, Warrior....). _Buff Bagwell's injury made me cringe. I didn't remember it looking so bad. _Horace Boulder has been signed and is a member of the flock. Joy. At least he's better than Brian Adams. _Man, Curt Hennig sucks and he's totally banged up. Why is he on my TV ? Mr. Perfect is a long gone memory at this point.

Add to that the Chyna/HHH double turn on the show that was so complicated I don't remember it. But it made no sense either. WM15 was a godawful show with a godawful build.

I guess "Not too much Benoit on the set" was an unwritten rule, especially if Woman was at his side, which for some people might be hard to watch. Oddly I have no trouble with it but I understand some people might have. I loved this match, which was one of Jarrett's all time best to me along with one match he had with Malenko. His first WCW stint was probably the best in term of matches. Starrcade 96 was pretty much the best PPV anyone could put out at this time. Great undercard, big drawing matches that worked, crowd going home happy.

Dustin Rhodes in a golden bodysuit portraying a glamourous manipulative sex-freak with a tiny female with huge boobs smoking a cigar at his side. I would add to this that he was also a movie buff who quoted films in the context of his feuds and even dressed like an Academy award. I didn't mention the Academy Award stuff because I never realized it before someone mentionned it a few weeks ago in some thread. But yeah, awesome promos. But I'd add the amazing intro, probably one of the best ever produced by WWF.

I didn't get the yearbook for several reasons (one being I'm broke.), but I really enjoy reading your thoughts about all of this (except your thoughts about anything about Raven of course...).

Dustin Rhodes in a golden bodysuit portraying a glamourous manipulative sex-freak with a tiny female with huge boobs smoking a cigar at his side.