El-P

In other news, this company is actually still fucking disgusting. MBS chants, people.

Please don't. Hell, I was actually thinking about that one today, how if Punk returns to WWE, would he take part in those Saudi shameless shows ? I would hope not, I would hope he would be the one to say "nope".

Matt. Matt. YOU'RE NOT FUCKING HELPING NOW (allow me to underline how fair play I am by posting this myself and making fun of it, not that it changes anything in the grand scheme of things) I wonder if this is the Montreal of the 20's and in 20 years people will still argue about it.

The one thing that has to be said, is that TK should have stopped Punk's rant. No idea how Punk would have reacted, but TK needed to stop him before he went too far and reframe the interview pretty quickly. If Punk left the room, then he would have left the room pissed, but this was a debacle of epic proportion. I hope it's a lesson learned.

No one is accusing you personally of anything. But you're just not making sense. As far as irrational hatred of Punk, well, too bad (but maybe you weren't talking about me, I dunno), you'll see me say time and time again how much I was enjoying Punk's stint in AEW and how much of a fan of him I was in this very thread, including on stuff that have nothing to do with pro-wrestling. So, nope, not me. If I had my way, I would have all four of them in AEW again and work an awesome Omega vs Punk main event eventually.

May indeed have happened. May not have happened also. There's also that one thing though : a pet dog has nothing to do at your workplace. So there. Yeah but everything he says is a lie because he's in bed with the Elite and the proof is he gave Omega seven stars at the Tokyo Dome despite him being a geek who can't work and only does movez. I'm way caricaturing but deep down inside, I do think a part of the pissed off people have that exact mentality (that's the audience of Cornette/Bischoff/Prichard's podcasts also). That's ignoring no other version of the story was given by any other reporters, but whatever, it doesn't matter, all that matters is "Dave is just defending TK and the Elite". From this perspective, whatever comes from his side is null and void anyway, which is a super comfortable stance to take.

Even if he wasn't in a good mood. Though shit. What did he expect after publicly burying the promotion ? A hug and a cookie ? Sure, confronting him there wasn't the best idea, but again, people are grasping at straws for excuses.

You make it sound like they mobbed the guy in the street of something. They went to his locker room after he publicly buried their company, okay. They probably should not have done that, considering how things turned out, sure. Doesn't change one bit of what Punk already had done that was damaging to the company. It has been established from the beginning that pretty much what came out was Punk's side and that the Elite actually never said anything. Repeating the opposite over and over again won't make it true. That's the job of a journalist. Getting infos from sources.

That's no ice-cream, but hey, that's better than nothing.

Unless the truth is "CM Punk was an asshole, it wasn't the Elite's fault" apparently. Because no source ever reported it at first despite only hearing the story that came from Punk's side. Because it confirms pretty much both what's been out there since the beginning (Punk and Ace physically attacking the Elite). Basically, being objective to you is siding with Punk despite all the actual facts of unprofesionnalism and results of the investigation pointing out to the other direction. The only pro-Punk's "arguments" at this point are conspiracy theory level. Really now. Get over it people.

So, Matt Hardy speaks on his podcast and says the Elite did not do anything wrong, as he witnessed the altercation. Of course it's gonna be deemed more conspiracy and politics by some, because no matter how many people will attest of the story, it always will be "but but but" unless it's going in Punk's favor. But anywoo. Hopefully the locker room morale gets better and we don't get any of that kinda stuff (see also, Andrade punching a guy to get fired), that can only help.

Oh, for sure, WWE is hot right now. Their Rumble advance is already huge and will be the biggest Rumble gate ever or something. Maybe the younger audience just likes LORE a lot. AEW has lost something. Maybe it's simply the freshness aspect of it. And I mean, speaking from someone who had more fun than ever watching pro-wrestling with the first 2/3 years of AEW, I'm catching up with IMPACT from this Summer, and if I had to chose to watch only 1 promotion right now as a tv weekly show, it would be IMPACT over AEW without much hesitation.

Because she's a woman. Simple as that. And yeah, they had the women headline Mania that year, but that was because of Ronda Rousey's status, not Becky's (which may or may not play against Becky's case too). And yeah, they had women headline Mania the next year, but it was also a two date Mania (and really, maybe that'll play in favor of Sasha Banks whenener it's her turn). Last year though, nope. So yes, things are evolving in the right directions, but we're still far off when we'll be able to really talk about equality. Which makes sense, it will take some time. And I mean, if we're strictly talking about booking, they had to throw Charlotte in there because Charlotte be like. For the details of booking, you'd have to ask for someone who actually was watching closely the TV then.

AEW is still by far the youngest audience in pro-wrestling though. They are losing their edge on that matter, but WWE's median age is still very old.

Nope. You compared her with Seth. But she isn't on the same standards as Seth or any other big male stars, no matter how you slice it. So, the fact she drew as much despite the equality issues should be taken in account when judging her case. It's not unfair to her male counterparts, it's just taking in account the fact women just aren't playing within the same rulebook. That's the neverending debate between "equality" and "fairness". Treating people like they have equal rights in a world actually filled with systemic inequalities is just playing along (and even validating to a degree) said inequalities (same thing goes with so-called "meritocracy"). The goal for sure from everybody should be equal rights for everyone. But it just isn't.

The issue with that is that there is an actual double standards *in life* for women. You can't call for equality of treatments for the HOF when there's no equality of treatment IRL. Not to say she should or should not be in (I actually never cared one bit about HOF and such, but enjoy some of the discussions).

Yep. And I cringe every time I see any of them still do shoot headbutts. I just don't get it. I guess Danielson and Shibata could just do a Taichi vs Ibushi. Not sure the audience would get it, but at least, not much risk there.

Sid had pretty much the same effect too by then. Always got a great reactions from the people who were already there, but never sold a ticket or a PPV buy for WCW. Very much a "status" pop, mixed in with nostalgia (and jingoist pandering, which always worked back then) with Duggan. Now, the Acclaimed may very well be selling merchandise and do good ratings (I haven't checked, I honestly am not very interested in ratings), but again, Billy Gunn on his own ? (and then again, The Acclaimed without Billy Gunn ? Who knows. They are hot together now, good for them) And then again, that doesn't mean at all anyone has to like it or consider it quality because it does good ratings. As we speak, the biggest draw in pro-wrestling in term of moving ratings from the norm and selling merch is Bray Wyatt.

The very much brand only oriented business kinda screws things up for modern candidates. Sure, Becky couldn't draw like the Crush Gals. She also doesn't work in the same country, in the same era (including technological), in the same market, under the same booking philosophy, in front of the same audiences. And on the other hand, working in WWE is also de facto an advantage in term of perception because WWE is the biggest company in the world. But also a disadvantage because of said brand oriented business model, which is pretty much everywhere now. This is why comparison don't always make the most sense anyways. From within the context in which she exists, it's hard to argue against the importance of Becky Lynch. The fact she never became bigger really is a testament to the complete ineptness of WWE at the time.

I dunno. He's 64 years old. If I'm a young 23 years old guy and I want advice, I will sure get them from veterans like Omega or the Bucks first (because indeed, they are veterans workers, just as Arn was a veteran during the Nitro years). Guys who are old by my own standards. Not everybody is watching stuff from 20 years before they were born. It's striking to me how pro-wrestling is such a conservative environment, including in the fanbase, with an reverence to the past that goes beyond reason. People are still talking about stuff from 35 years ago like it was yesterday. Well, it's not yesterday, 35 years ago is ancient. Sure, Arn was an awesome worker 40 to 30 years ago, and sure there is stuff to learn from this. But not getting why guys in their early 20's would rather look up to guys in the mid-30's (which, by their standards, are already fairly old and from the former generation) really speaks of this, sorry to have to say it, old man mentality that is rampant in pro-wrestling fandom.Well, of course you look at WWE median TV audience and this explains that. Still, it doesn't shock me that very young guys would not even care about a 64 year old in the locker room, as sad as it seems to us, hardcore geeky, tape collecting (that's for the age thing) gatekeepers. Plus, let's be real, pro-wrestling should be moving forward, as it always did. And people moving it forward are always the younger guys changing it from within and making it evolve, to the chagrin of the older generations, workers and fans alike. Ok, but what does that mean ? Like, really mean ? "He's over" seems like a magic word, but it often hides tons of complex stuff that have to do with status, context and outside elements. Is Billy Gunn over, or is the entire act over ? If you take Billy Gunn solo and push him as a serious contented for a title, his he gonna stay over very long ? And is this "overness" means anything in term of business ? And again, is this due to his talent and creativity or just haphazard ? Sure, right now, in the current context, Billy Gunn gets great reactions thanks to an act that is super over. It reminds me of Too Cool & Rikishi in what was a super hot WWF back then. The act was over. Was it sustainable ? Nope. But they had a nice ride. That doesn't mean I'll think of Billy Gunn with some kind of pro-wrestling wizard (pun intended) who knows the secret sauce of how to get over. Hell, Hook at one point was arguably more over than 95% of the AEW audience. Before he even debuted. That was a meme. So yeah, the idea of "X is so over therefore" is nice and all, but unless you dig into the reasons of why and in which conditions this works, it really doesn't mean that much. People talk about how Wardlow was so over and is kinda cold now and blame the booking for it. Sure, booking was not great, but what were they supposed to do with Wardlow ? Give him the World title ? And then what ? Beat everyone ? We see how Jade has already jumped the shark doing this. My impression is that Wardlow got super over within a certain context only, it being the MJF feud. After is was done, and I've said it over and over again, a big guy doing three powerbombs in a row is not that super interesting in the long run. After a while, it gets kinda repetitive. The fact he's having better matches lately has me a bit more optimistic but then again, he'll have to lose at one point, and then what happens ? Speaking of big guys, Luchasaurus is currently suffering exactly what I feared. They have him work like Kane and deprived him of most of the things that made him unique and cool (the moves, people, the moves), and he's not 1/10th as over as he was before in Jurassik Express. And since he never was a great worker to begin with, now he's basically a slightly better version of W. Morrissey with a dinosaur mask.

The fact that Katsuyori Shibata is gonna make his official comeback match on Rampage in a losing effort against Orange Cassidy at Atlantic City, announced by Mike Tyson, is what we call in France a Kamoulox.

To me it's too soon to see the long-term effects of Vince being outed. It's still his company at heart. They are still getting lots of money to do propaganda for a criminal regime. They are still idiot proof because of how much money they make thanks to their status in the game. This is a company with an amazing amount of inertia. Creative being better on the short term (thus far) is one thing, but the company was on the upswing already while Vince was still there. I'm sure some are gonna try to twist the narrative into "Triple H saved the company and turned the business around", but it's not factual. It's still very possible the company gets sold to some major media company, then everything changes. To me the long-term effects of Vince being gone will be more apparent in 5 years or so. Then, we'll be able to talk about what really has changed following Vince's departure.

Well, apparently Shibata wants the same thing. Danielson vs Shibata reads like a dream match, but there's no way Shibata can work like he used to. Danielson is that great that he can make it safe for Shibata I guess. Hey, if we're getting it, they should get KENTA at ringside. They both come from his mold (well, there is also that other guy but he probably won't be around anymore).

Billy Gunn is gonna teach what ? How to get over thanks to someone else's catchphrase every 22 years ? And I'm sure NO ONE in that locker room is listening to whatever Brian Danielson has to say. Anyway, if you want to learn psychology today, the best pro-wrestlers at storytelling in the world are about 30 years old anyway. If I'm Jungle Boy (for instance), I'm watching those guys rather than sitting under the learning tree of Billy Gunn, no offense Daddy Ass.

*this is awesome* clap clap clap clap clap