Matt D

I can't imagine any of those marathon matches were taped.

I'm towards the very end of the Ken stuff so some things might be covered later (and I am looking forward to hearing what Elliott thinks about the Revival tag). I did press him to talk a bit about the Tobita/Ken match in internet wrestling history context. Actually, it's sort of funny that they just drop you in with very little context except for "This is in a gym in japan!" It half makes me wonder if Stacey realized that things like this: happened too (but she's a strong youtube searcher, so I imagine she does). It's hard to understate As it came to internet irony enjoyment of wrestling, the DVDVR guys were 15 years ahead of their time by clinging on to Tobita and Ken as their mascots in 2000. Let me put it this way. By that time, I had seen far more Tobita than I had seen Misawa.

When you guys had gotten through the Ken matches in about ten minutes, I had no idea how you were going to fill the next thirty. I should have known better.

There are times that I worry I am more inclined towards Johnny than Pete on this stuff. For instance, I kept going on to the latter how that heckler carried the first 8 minutes of the match entirely on his own. I liked Gordman vs Leon. It was in slow motion at times but Gordman wasn't afraid to bump and he works as sort of a fake Satanico (which isn't fair to him considering how much of a star in his own right he was in CA), just a rudo's rudo. Leon brings a lot of the tricked out arm drags and the energy. This was an opening match and while I would have loved to hear Boesch commentate on it, when we don't have the commentary, we can really hear the crowd and man were they into it. I'm excited to see more of this card too. Robinson in Houston sounds fascinating. That could be Mansfield's career match, for instance, and Tank's career worst!

So, I'm not going to outright say that Jose Lothario punching people is the best thing in wrestling history but... well, it is.

Look, this is another one of those weeks that really proved how special this footage is. Maybe another service will get you a higher number of current 4* matches or whatever, but this is footage that no one's seen in 35 years that's everything we love about old wrestling. In the last week we had some stuff that was just okay from a quality standpoint, like Slater vs Duncum, but that was also a match that we never even thought about. It was another look at Slater's development in 81, where he was as a main event heel (not where he would be a year or two later), a Southwest Title match, Duncum playing that Mulligan esque babyface again. We got the tag with Manny and Tiger, another great look at mid-card hero Tiger (and yes, he's been a revelation in the footage), just how much of a breath of fresh air Manny must have been in this period, more of just how good Robley was as a grinding heel and sure, another look at Tank, who I think is slightly better than Pete does (in cutting off the ring especially). We had Tiger and the midgets and yes, Ivan was awesome. We've seen a bunch of midget matches from this era now, from this territory and others and there were a few spots in there I'd never seen before that were just so good. And then there's the Lewin face turn which felt like just one of the classic turns. He's a guy who was on the back end of his career but that had been presented for decades as something important. The way he just basks in the crowd, not overly appealing to him, but using his actions and specific moves (like the dropkick) to get over that now he's a face, by decimating both Dillon (who was more than willing to bleed to get this over) and Hart, and then by just holding his arms out as the fans cheered. He was still Lewin but he was their Lewin now. That's what we got in a week, basically. Almost everything there has been unseen for three and a half decades. Just think about that. And I haven't even watched the best match of the week (per Pete) yet, being Gino vs Young. And hey, hopefully we get something tonight or tomorrow too.

Besides Sheamus and Reigns, were there other victims of the company's inability to grasp Bryan's star power? Comeback Bautista, I guess, but that was likely a short-term thing anyway. Orton didn't seem to come out of his long feud with Bryan any better or worse than he already was. Which I guess is quintessential Randy Orton. Was the initial plan to have Brock crush Batista at Summerslam to set up Reigns at Mania?

There are a couple of Tully vs Duncum matches, I think. As for the tag, I love Boesch but him not getting that the ref missed the tag took me out of the match for a minute. In general, I was slightly higher on this than Pete. I liked how Tank and Robley worked together and didn't differentiate them quite as much. In general, I think Robley is more unique, at least. There's always something askew about the way he moves and his general presence. Tank's more meat and potatoes. I like some of the little things he does though, like the way he used his body to cut off the ring. I really liked Manny and Tiger together. Finish was made better by blood and steel but it was a bit of a cop it. It felt like Robley booking and protecting himself when the faces should have gone over, even if they did the post match stuff but I have no idea if Buck was actually booking Southwest at this point.

I'm totally with Pete on this one. I think, for instance, the match would have worked a lot better with Gino instead of Slater, because while Slater's good, especially on offense, he wasn't nearly irritating enough to make that headlock sequence work. He gets there a little bit with the early over the top attempts, but in general, you needed someone as annoying as Buddy Rose or Gino to make it work. I loved the targeted limb stuff and Duncum's selling was top notch. I loved how the boot being off played into both falls. From what we've seen, 81 Duncum has a really great match in him in Houston, but this isn't it.

JR is a lot better at doing podcasts than I am but we were thinking of doing a big British Wrestling project and calling it "Seconds Away" at some point (after WoS was so underrepresented in GWE). I just have too much going on all the time, unfortunately.

Don Muraco?

Follow the money?

How much of this is gimmick PPVs? How much of it is weekly TV with big matches. How much is it that WWE doesn't want to build uncontrollable stars relative to a brand? How much is the TV writers? How much is Vince being out of touch? How much is PG? How much is the lack of competition? Lack of places for wrestlers to go? And is it REALLY that dire? Have they really not managed any compelling multi-month storyline? Are we falsely remembering how they did this in decades past or in other territories? It's amazing at how bad they seem to be at this when it should be their single job, more or less.

This is a really good idea. I was going to suggest to you guys that you do something like "1979 Thanksgiving Day Shows" and look at all the results from that night and give context to the feuds and how the pushes were working and the territories, etc., but this is another way at getting at that sort of thing that's maybe more in line with the BtS format.

Yeah, this is certainly an issue. Let's use Punk as an example, since he's a great promo and natural storyteller. He was in WWE for over 7 years and had very few long-term feuds that are even "good." The Jeff Hardy stuff is a good angle and there's actually a progression in the finishes to the big matches (in part because Punk was able definitively win since they fired Hardy at the end). After that... the stuff with Mysterio is ok but repetitive, the feud with Bryan and Kane over AJ is decent soap opera stuff with great matches, and the Cena stuff never worked for more than a month at a time. And this was a pushed guy! So I think that leads to the question of how much of this falls on Orton not being a compelling character vs. the position he's in and the era he's in. If Orton is around in the 80s, he probably falls into a role in various territories a bit like Jake Roberts - the sociopathic killer heel with a lights out finisher. But the movement would allow him to keep an aura that the current format just does not allow. He also probably would have been a babyface far less frequently, which really doesn't play to his strengths. I just haven't had time to make the thread but i really want to know what people think are multi-month angles that have worked in post 2001 WWE. Jericho vs Michaels, Michaels vs Undertaker, maybe the Flair retirement, maybe Legend Killer Randy Orton, maybe Hall of Pain Mark Henry to a degree, the Batista turn, but it's not much. It's astoundingly not much. And what about in this decade specifically?

I'm not sure there's a massive functional difference? I do think portraying him as a coward didn't help.

I do think it's interesting how polarizing Orton can be, even in this thread. I personally think much of the issue is that WWE hasn't had many successful multi-month angles in the last fifteen years. (Orton as Legend Killer/IC Champ may actually be one of them). You take out Michaels vs Jericho and even the stuff we kind of fondly remember like Punk (Nashed) and Bryan (They fell into it and pushed against it and got it right after a few reverse courses only to screw it up enough after the win that he was getting booed) don't really hold up.

It's also the one for the best storyline reason for happening. Stro is right. It really is different than the other two. Much more natural.

They need to keep Roman and Brock away from each other for a while. They have Roman slip on a peel and feed Braun to Brock next month?

That's not sponsored by Jerry Lawler shouting about puppies in 1999, sure.

Things have been busy. I'm still watching everything but I'm lax on the write-ups. Dibiase vs Hayes was gold. Another classic part of the feud. I took a lot of flack one March upon a time where I was overly critical of a wrestler who dropped his character while performing certain moves. My counter to that is Michael PS Hayes. He's probably the most committed wrestler ever in that regard. The expression on his face as he's charging Dibiase across the ring is this perfect mix of disdain and cockiness and underhanded viciousness. I love that it was Dibiase's glove on the pole. Ted(and Doc) vs the Birds is one of the best feuds of the 80s. There's no doubt about it at this point. They ran it for half a year with great match after great match and great promos to boot. How great was Ted's comeback out of the corner. It's a crime we didn't get babyface Ted after 87. I wish this had one moment of Ted (with the Million Dollar Glove) hitting a heel. The post match promo made me badly want to see the Ted vs OMG match too. Koko vs OMG was another good OMG performance. You have to love all of Koko's dodging to begin. "Milking it for all it was worth" is right. I'm with Pete on this one, including the finish. I hope we can get more Valentine from earlier into the 70s as we go. He had such a presence. Anyway, keep 'em coming Bruce. Seeing a new match pop up is easily a highlight of my day.

Is that the name of the local hospital?

Either that or the wellness policy got his pick. He hit a .8 on the Nikki Bella Forearm scale tonight though.

Am I the only one who kind of wants to see Joe vs Orton?

Could be why Corbin didn't win the belt?