Matt D

The Lucas match was interesting. I got a kick out of Boesch calling him "dependable" as the very first thing, because you knew how important that was to him.What was most striking was just how much of the match Lucas took as the babyface. Some of the headscissors stuff was good and fairly elaborate, working and out through spots, but then it moved on to him being on top with a headlock and so on and so forth. Grenade, combustible as he may have been, barely got anything in the match. Meanwhile, while Lucas was sound and working hard, I wouldn't say he was particularly memorable, so if both wrestlers came out looking better in the Ivan/Tiger match, as Pete indicated, I'm not sure anyone really came out of this one looking all that great. The kids running to the rail to celebrate the win enjoyed it though, so there's that at least, right? This is the sort of match which could theoretically turn me negatively on a wrestler, but only if I saw him do it a number of times, and also keeping the context of the card in mind. This was the opening match on the card, as best as I can tell, with the Tiger/Ivan match following it. If they flipped the two it would have worked better I think.

I can't sleep and I've got a telework day tomorrow so I'm playing some catch up: Kiniski vs Patton: Kiniski was just on fire here. I've seen very little of young Kiniski but I can't imagine he worked like this twenty years earlier. He just threw himself into everything for eight minutes or so. This was old man go-go-go, with chops and mares and endless geriatric aggression. Patton would get his chops in with a shot to the throat or by yanking him down from the outside, but in general, he was game to feed and feed and feed. I would have loved to see ten minutes of Kiniski vs Gino from right around here. As it was, this was a lot of fun. More on the Gold Cup after I find the strength to watch a 20 minute Mike Graham match. Some things seem to stand out. Tiger vs Ivan: Boesch summed it up perfectly, not with "Some people don't admit they're terrible," to describe Ivan, but with "Listen to the rising crescendo." That was the match, which was hardly ambitious but really solid as the sort of undercard match that gets the crowd into the show, that lets Boesch talk about some upcoming talent and read off the birthdays. Conway had the fans on every hold he worked his way out of, struggling and waving them along to cheer. They were more than happy to do so. He was over enough and talented enough that in another territory (if he could recapture what he had with the local connection here) he could have held a secondary belt or been the guy to put over whoever was going to face the travelling champ, that sort of role. Ivan kept on top with cheapshots and eyerakes (leading Boesch to comment, in his imitable fashion how that could make you gunshy and hesitant to come in). Conway would come back with his athleticism and his punches and due to the unbreakable head, having his share of flourishes to stand out, and would finally get just enough distance to hit the flying headbutt off the top on a rising Ivan. Ivan's a meat and potatoes wrestler but there's nothing wrong with that. Matches like this aren't main events, but they make the wrestling world go round.

Big Show vs Mayweather might be the single greatest Mania performance.

I think the belief is that Dave's influence is so massive among hardcore wrestling fans that his star ratings will either turn them on or turn them off to watching or caring about lucha libre, and I don't disagree. And if you are like me, when you see something great and appreciate it, you want others to see it and appreciate it, because at your core, you like seeing other people experience joy and happiness, especially when it's for the same reason you experienced joy and happiness. And when you see something awesome that no one has talked about, after you get past the initial reaction of, "Wow, it's awesome that we discovered this", there is a little disappointment that the performers were not celebrated for the greatness of the match when it actually happened, a process that Dave has more or less controlled for nearly 40 years. But anyway, it's not so much about one guy having a divergent opinion as much as it is about the weight that opinion carries. When people like the things we like, it's a nice reminder that we aren't alone in this world, it gives us a sense of community and it fulfills the human need to connect with other human beings, using professional wrestling as a medium to do so. I think that's generally true of any hobby with a social component. I think the bigger issue has always been that he missed the mark on about half of the things that made lucha great.

This was terribly good. I've seen my share of Satomura over the years but never enough to really stick. I have a general sense of her but couldn't give you too many specifics. I have less of that for Shirai, who I've heard the hype for and maybe have seen a match or two but I don't even have the general sense. The opening matwork was tremendous, with such natural and organic progression from one hold to the next, both women really bringing it. They mixed quick strikes, blocks, and reversals in with more struggle-based holds. The bit where Shirai finally got a crab after being in one herself was very novel, as she locked in the crab, had to settle for a half crab once Satomura started struggling, and then cinched up the Texas Cloverleaf after that all in the most smooth yet believable way that you see with the best lucha maestro matwork. I hadn't expected Shirai to take the brunt of the match so viciously (let's face it, she's the one who came in with the cutesy mask and Satomura was all business; after the fact I figured out she was booked as a monster who had already beaten Satomura once, but coming in, I had no idea) but it really worked so well. She came in prepared for Satomura's kicks and suplexes and was able to cut both off in interesting fashion, utilizing dragon whips, and the best leg-grab-through-her own-legs-and-right-into-the-nastiest-hold counter to a German. I liked that she waited so long to target the leg too, because she was able to own that control segment, creating the impression that instead of taking the most opportunistic route, she really wanted to make a point, utilizing brutal foot choking, landing numerous knees (some of them set up in a contrived way that worked because of how quickly she managed it and how much impact she was able to hit it with. When she did something contrived, she made it seem like it would actually work better than the simple version, which is far rarer than you'd think), and stubbornly going back to her moonsault to the floor when it almost cost her in the first attempt. Satomura only got back into the match after a long choke, one that within the confines of the match, worked well. You had the sense, through the sharp contrast to what came before and through Shirai's selling, that she really lost her wind through it. You don't usually see that. It was great because by this point in the match, it was established that Satomura wasn't going to be able to come back with kicks and suplexes alone. Even then, once Shirai was able to shake it off, there was still the sense that she was the more dominant one in the match. Satomura really had to fight back. There were a lot of bombs towards the end but between the effort in hitting them (and the struggle and desperation to block them), the selling, physical and emotional, and just enough space being put between them, I picked up a sufficient sense of escalation and weight. I think ultimately that's what was most striking to me. I'm used to watching these quite good Charlotte matches where we remark on them making sure to sell in a key moment or which have a certain sharp transition, or maybe a spotlight little touch like repeated punches to the leg in a submission, something like that. You get the sense that those bits are carefully planned and choreographed. They're satisfying because they're still somewhat rare in WWE in general and in WWE's women's matches over the decades in particular, but here there seems to be something like that in every exchange, not as anything spotlight but just as the commonplace norm that comes from wrestlers having mastery of their craft. I am always very hesitant to judge a match when I don't have proper context. I haven't seen much Shirai. I don't remember much Satomura. I certainly didn't see their match from the previous December. So, I'm not necessarily going to say HOW good this was, but I'm quite confident in saying that it WAS good.

I can't imagine that rolling the dice on another twelve months is a good idea for Reigns (I can imagine they'll do it). Summerslam feels a lot more reasonable. So much of the problem with what they did a couple of years ago was not having him beat Rollins by Summerslam (if not earlier). Reigns had enough momentum after the Brock match (which worked, in real time, exactly how they wanted it to) to chase for a little while, but the key word there was little. I don't think Rollins stealing it was a bad thing, necessarily, but the key to that was Reigns beating him decisively in short order afterwards. Instead we got months and months of HHH, Jr. until Rollins ended up injured and there was never payoff (and it was too late by then anyway). They can't manage a year long story if they can't book more than a few weeks in advance at any point. The problem with Mania this year is that putting Reigns over Taker will piss off this crowd and they don't have a result that'll make people happy in the end. The crowd will be split on Goldberg vs Brock. No one cares THAT much about Randy Orton. AJ vs Shane will be split. Owens vs Jericho isn't high enough up the card (and even then, probably split). They don't have a match on this card where anyone actually cares about a winner. I think it's a much more interesting card than last year, but it's a disaster from that point of view.

Not to look into the bird in the bush but a 20 minute Bock/Wahoo draw sounds awesome. I can't even imagine Gino vs the Sheik either. Really looking forward to watching the Kiniski match later. I doubled back and caught the Dundee/Mantel vs Fantastics match by the way and the first 2/3rds of it was insanely action packed. Even the holds seemed frenetic. Moreover, at times there was a sense of danger due to the pole itself that I don't think you see often. There were times where a Fantastic was teetering off of it and it felt dangerous in the same way a cage or scaffold match might. I thought the straight up tag rules made it a little weird (usually you see this sort of thing with texas tornado rules) but it was very enjoyable.

I firmly believe that wrestlers and fighters have roughly the same goals when it comes to the categories they're voted on together: best on interviews, biggest draw, most charismatic. There are separate awards for Fighter/Wrestler of the year, most outstanding and best match because when they step into the ring/cage they have totally different jobs. The job they have outside of that are largely very similar. Would a fighter really play a character in the middle of a fight? Charisma is a performance tool for wrestlers telling a story in the ring as well. It's not just on promos.

If they stuck to the Brock plan, it could have worked. He was getting over in front of the toughest crowd in the world in that match. Then came Rollins and the case.

Phoenix basically had what, a five year run? Plus OVW. I'm really curious about the logic. Is it that she's still in good shape and isn't as old as Ivory/Molly/Terri/etc so she's more photogenic for press releases or what not? Did Edge push for it? Is it a way to troll people who want Chyna in? It almost has to be the last one, right? Because a lot of the arguments for Beth (as few as they are) are a lesser version of the Chyna arguments (which aren't so great to begin with). Now they can say they don't need to put Chyna in because they had someone who did similar things.

No I get that, and it's tough trying to fit everyone onto Mania, but it's about priorities. The top male wrestlers WILL get top singles matches/title matches/showcase matches at Mania. It's when you get down to the midcard or leftover guys where they'll get thrown into a random undercard match or the battle royal to get them on the show. Jobbers will struggle to make it on. But the top female wrestlers WILL get thrown into their random undercard matches to get them on the show. Everyone below them misses out. The women have kind of made it from the absolute bottom of that Midcard/Throw Them On Somewhere tier to the top of it. That's progress I guess. But they're still ways away from cracking the top tier. They flirted with it by having them main event a B PPV and Raw and stuff (and again I'm not complaining about that kind of progress) but when you get to Mania you see where their REAL priorities lie. And at Mania the clock strikes midnight and the women have to go back into their box. We need the time for the real stars. Like, the fact that the women have come so far in the last 12 months kind of makes it worse. During the year they can main event PPVs and TV and have 30 minute title matches and stuff. They've shown that they have the workers and the popularity to do it. But they won't even consider building two separate women's issues for Mania. They won't even consider building to some epic, 30 minute title match like the men get. The best they can do is shoehorn them into the same lone title match spot that they always get. But this time, they'll get 15 minutes to work instead of 3. Again, I don't disagree, but I think there's such a lack of basic competence that it's hard to hone in too much. It's basically saying "Your house is on fire. Also, all the windows are broken." If they were doing a bunch of things right and this was one that was wrong, then, sure, but this is just another cup of water in the bucket of gross card management incompetence. When's the last time they booked a successful, meaningful tag team championship feud at Mania? When's the last time there was a singles match for a secondary title that really mattered in your Savage vs Steamboat/Shawn vs Razor (or even Rock vs Shamrock/Savage vs Steele) sort of way? At the very least, you could argue that the women last year were one of the biggest matches on the card. Their faces were up there with Shane/Taker and Reigns/HHH. I guess what I'm trying to say is that Mania is not the best indicator of this sort of thing because it's so broken to begin with across the board.

You're right, of course, but card management is a big problem in general. Is Zayn going to get a singles match? Is Joe? Is Braun? Is Harper? We did just have a Smackdown PPV with 3 women's matches, right? Mania's tough because all of the bullshit. They've never figured out a way around it. I think, personally, I'd much rather have a Wrestlemania VII with a lot of fun little showcase matches than a bunch of 25 minute "epics." I know I'm not in the majority though.

I would like to make a motion that we ignore the WON Awards this year. Do I have a second?

I wish we had more 70s comedy Van Buyten.

Rollins has really good cardio.

It's like Sid in ECW (as it pertains to fan mentality, not in that the situations are comparable otherwise). Fans will pop for a surprise.

Awesome fifteen minutes of pro wrestling!

I've been hoping that Duggan vs Dusty match would pop up. The energy of 82 heel Duggan has been one of my favorite things on the service. Looking forward to it.

Actually, let me come down even more harshly. The issue with Fuji in specific isn't just the cartoon or stereotype nature, but (and this is even more true as his run went on) instead the fact that he was basically the only Japanese sort of character/influence WWF had. There was a massive fetishization of Japanese wrestling and here was Fuji, far more effective in his role than he got credit for, basically (past the JBA) the only taste of that Dave could get in the biggest company that he covered. And he was the exact opposite of everything he wanted. Of course he was going to be negative about him and miss the positives. They were exactly opposed to what he valued.

I wonder if the issue isn't that one move is wholly symbolic while the other is actually dangerous. I think the correct answer (and I haven't seen the match) is that it's different when a monster survives a killshot than even a main event wrestler.

Looks like I have this wrong. I had been confused. Things had not been drawing well AROUND this time but this card itself did well. I still hope we get that cage match at some point. Anyway, Re: Fuji. I think he was very effective, quite frankly. He was the best WWF manager for ringside interference of the era. There was a credibility to him for being a former tag champion, the fact he had a weapon that was easier to use in an actual match than a megaphone for instance (the cane could hook a leg, be a whack on the floor, or just be tossed in to his charges), and there was a certain credibility to the idea that he loved pain that worked with his stable. As a kid, he resonated due to the Karate Kid angle. The idea of an evil Mr. Miyagi was awesome and they sort of lucked into it. The problem, so as I see it, was this: He embarrassed Dave, who always wanted more realism and sport in wrestling at the detriment to so many of the things that actually make pro wrestling great. He was a cartoon character but a very effective one. Dave just hated cartoons.

Rocky's sure learned his lesson from being booed for supporting Roman.

I absolutely loved the Mil/Manny vs Dynamic Duo match. I'm higher on it than Pete, certainly, even though I know he liked it. I think this is probably the best example yet at just how good Gino was in 1981. You take the basic premise of the match, that he had wronged Mil over time, that he was afraid of him despite all of his boasts, that he was going to try to hide behind Tully and capitalize on every advantage they could manage, despite the two refs, and then you take his natural skill, charisma and sheer dedication and you get a truly special performance. It was so good I wanted to timestamp every little thing he does in the match. That was sort of a ridiculous chore, but I do want to highlight a couple of things. First, look at his headlock segment early on with Manny. It was perfect in its understanding of exactly how he should be bumping and stooging. He eats a dropkick in it, for instance, but understands that the way he should bump for it, in this moment early in the match, was to be stunned and surprised, bouncing back up and right into the headlock takeover again. It was a functional slap so early on. Then look at the ending of that, when Manny makes the tag to Mil. First he struggles to get away, scared. Then when Manny just lets him go, at Mil's instruction, he looks over to him, exasperated, totally unsure why the heck he's getting out of the ring and just leaving him with Mil. Then he puts his hands over his ears to try to block out the excited crowd. Finally, he backsteps with his hands up just far enough to allow him to turn tail and run to Tully and the tag. Then on the apron, he puts his hands over his ears again. It was perfect to draw the crowd in, to portray a series of emotions that showed how invested Gino was, to get Mil over as a massive threat without even taking one bump for him yet. This goes on and on. Tully works Mil to the corner. That means that Gino's excited to come in, to work his way around for the double team. Mil immediately turns it into a double noggin-knocker though, and Gino staggers back, holding his head. He eats the flying headbutt off the ropes immediately there after and sells by bouncing up and tagging Tully in one astoundingly cowardly movement. They show him rolling to the floor after that, looking relieved to be out of the ring. Next time he gets tagged in, Mil tags out to Manny (he'd already done a double headlock takeover/headscissors to the Duo as Gino ran in to feed the spot). Gino immediately points to Mil on the apron demanding he tags back in. When he does (and Manny knows how to milk that moment), Gino immediately runs for the hills as the crowd goes nuts. It's a beautiful, beautiful thing. Gino finally does take over with a cheapshot knee (And Boesch is great in his moralizing), and the desperation in being in control against a star like Mil is just what you want. He hits a move and goes for a pin but the second Mil kicks out, Gino's dashing across the ring to make the tag. Then he dashes back to elbow him in the back of the head to hold him in place until Tully can get there. That level of urgency imparts weight and importance to everything that happens. Again, if Gino cares THAT much, the crowd is going to care too. So a hot tag happens and Manny cleans house, hitting first a giant knee drop off the ropes and then the flying forearm. If this was a two out of three falls match, it'd be a pin, but instead it's both a near-fall and a transition, as Tully rushes in to break the pinfall. Manny immediately goes after Tully, who had retreated back to the apron and this lets Gino get a knee to the back in. After he tags out, he sells the damage by slumping over the turnbuckle on the apron. Tully does a lot of the actual working over of Manny (with a nice butterfly suplex and neckbreaker), with Gino feeding for the hope spots (including a giant sunset flip). His big contribution here is some cheapshots on the floor and then running away from Mil's attempt at a save to huge reaction from the crowd. When Manny finally makes the hot tag after a sort of northern lights set up into a belly to belly which could easily work as a finisher today, Gino's reaction is (again) perfect. He recoils as if he was hit, spinning around and backing into the corner in fear, eating a flurry of headlocked fists as the crowd is constantly screaming. The heels cheat to win and celebrate, drawing heat even as Manny tries to run them off. All of this makes the impassioned Mil promo in Spanish all the better and all of this sets up the Mexican Death Match between the Duo and Mil/Dos Caras two weeks later. Just an amazing, chickenshit, heatseeking performance by Gino.

I absolutely loved the Mil/Manny vs Dynamic Duo match. I'm higher on it than Pete, certainly, even though I know he liked it. I think this is probably the best example yet at just how good Gino was in 1981. You take the basic premise of the match, that he had wronged Mil over time, that he was afraid of him despite all of his boasts, that he was going to try to hide behind Tully and capitalize on every advantage they could manage, despite the two refs, and then you take his natural skill, charisma and sheer dedication and you get a truly special performance. It was so good I wanted to timestamp every little thing he does in the match. That was sort of a ridiculous chore, but I do want to highlight a couple of things. First, look at his headlock segment early on with Manny. It was perfect in its understanding of exactly how he should be bumping and stooging. He eats a dropkick in it, for instance, but understands that the way he should bump for it, in this moment early in the match, was to be stunned and surprised, bouncing back up and right into the headlock takeover again. It was a functional slap so early on. Then look at the ending of that, when Manny makes the tag to Mil. First he struggles to get away, scared. Then when Manny just lets him go, at Mil's instruction, he looks over to him, exasperated, totally unsure why the heck he's getting out of the ring and just leaving him with Mil. Then he puts his hands over his ears to try to block out the excited crowd. Finally, he backsteps with his hands up just far enough to allow him to turn tail and run to Tully and the tag. Then on the apron, he puts his hands over his ears again. It was perfect to draw the crowd in, to portray a series of emotions that showed how invested Gino was, to get Mil over as a massive threat without even taking one bump for him yet. This goes on and on. Tully works Mil to the corner. That means that Gino's excited to come in, to work his way around for the double team. Mil immediately turns it into a double noggin-knocker though, and Gino staggers back, holding his head. He eats the flying headbutt off the ropes immediately there after and sells by bouncing up and tagging Tully in one astoundingly cowardly movement. They show him rolling to the floor after that, looking relieved to be out of the ring. Next time he gets tagged in, Mil tags out to Manny (he'd already done a double headlock takeover/headscissors to the Duo as Gino ran in to feed the spot). Gino immediately points to Mil on the apron demanding he tags back in. When he does (and Manny knows how to milk that moment), Gino immediately runs for the hills as the crowd goes nuts. It's a beautiful, beautiful thing. Gino finally does take over with a cheapshot knee (And Boesch is great in his moralizing), and the desperation in being in control against a star like Mil is just what you want. He hits a move and goes for a pin but the second Mil kicks out, Gino's dashing across the ring to make the tag. Then he dashes back to elbow him in the back of the head to hold him in place until Tully can get there. That level of urgency imparts weight and importance to everything that happens. Again, if Gino cares THAT much, the crowd is going to care too. So a hot tag happens and Manny cleans house, hitting first a giant knee drop off the ropes and then the flying forearm. If this was a two out of three falls match, it'd be a pin, but instead it's both a near-fall and a transition, as Tully rushes in to break the pinfall. Manny immediately goes after Tully, who had retreated back to the apron and this lets Gino get a knee to the back in. After he tags out, he sells the damage by slumping over the turnbuckle on the apron. Tully does a lot of the actual working over of Manny (with a nice butterfly suplex and neckbreaker), with Gino feeding for the hope spots (including a giant sunset flip). His big contribution here is some cheapshots on the floor and then running away from Mil's attempt at a save to huge reaction from the crowd. When Manny finally makes the hot tag after a sort of northern lights set up into a belly to belly which could easily work as a finisher today, Gino's reaction is (again) perfect. He recoils as if he was hit, spinning around and backing into the corner in fear, eating a flurry of headlocked fists as the crowd is constantly screaming. The heels cheat to win and celebrate, drawing heat even as Manny tries to run them off. All of this makes the impassioned Mil promo in Spanish all the better and all of this sets up the Mexican Death Match between the Duo and Mil/Dos Caras two weeks later. Just an amazing, chickenshit, heatseeking performance by Gino. I'll comment on the JYD/Tiger match later, but what was immediately cool about it was that it was just one week later and it's far, far more of a Tully performance than a Gino performance and just as good in many ways.

Thanks Nick. One of my favorite things about the service is that it feels that we're able to, almost from just the text of the matches alone, get a sense of the history of the Houston territory. Looking forward to those Dynamic Duo tags. That September 25 card (only a few days off from when I was born) seems stacked: Patton vs Pritchard Robley vs Duncum A JYD vs Gino singles to set up the tag Brass Knuckles: Patera vs Manny Southwest Title: Wahoo vs Slater (Do we even have a Wahoo vs Slater match on tape?) Bock vs Brody on top for the AWA title