Matt D

Parv, I'm going to repost this from DVDVR, because it's more amusing than anything else. I actually think there's something to it though. I'm not 100% what, mind you: Ahem. . . AJ: cosplaying nerd who dreams of being a comic book artist. Bellas: Nikki is the all-american athlete/teen model while Brie is the Health Club president who falls for Goat McHerdy, as they're the only vegans in the entire school. Paige: supposedly wild goth girl who's actually the most sane member of her family. Bayley: the school sweetheart who gets friendzoned by all the guys because she's just too nice. Also loves ponies and quirky dolls and erasers shaped like ice cream cones. Emma: always rude to Bayley, but secretly harbors feelings for her. Lana: exchange student who quickly adapts an American accent and eventually runs away with the dance teacher. Becky: the other exchange student who maintains her Irish accent and who fights with Lana over the dance teacher. Wears Riverdance clogs all the time, even in gym. Naomi: smartest girl in class who wins the dance scholarship to Julliard over Lana and Becky. Tamina: school enforcer who just shows up and kicks ass when needed. Sasha: ultra-cool chick who doesn't give a fuck about you or anything that you do. Also, serves as the school DJ with a Rastafarian cousin who drives a smoked-out van. Cameron: Bianca Dupree. Runs school website a al Gossip Girl. Charlotte: comes from a once well-to-do family, but her dad blew the family savings. Natalya: founder of the Felines are Friends Forever Club. Only wears pink and black. Pals around with Tyson and Claudio. All the girls secretly love Claudio. Summer/Alexa: mean cheerleader snobs. Carmella: says that she's a made girl. No one questions it. Stephanie: super rich girl whose daddy owns 80% of the town. Has a personal assistant named Jericho. Freaks out when her long-moved away brother is mentioned.

I'd lead with this: Other people would lead with this:

That should be a write in Feud of the Year entry for the awards.

Can we change the title to this thread yet?

Re: the previous trend of discussion and new ideas and what not. Frankly, I don't care a lot. I appreciate that these matches and this era has been so picked over/evaluated that there are no new original thoughts. I'm not going to get into a big JDW/Parv argument about that. As late as two years ago I felt like there was a strong dogma. It's noticeable that so many people are leaning against that, in fact, that a majority of the people new to these matches are leaning against that. Literally, someone above noticed it. And that's what people are responding to. I'm not saying that the world's being changed or anything. I think it's just interesting. Maybe it's being heavily overstated. Maybe it's just the nature of PWO that nothing is sacred here. I've seen a dozen or so Taue singles matches. That's a fair number for the other 3 as well. What I can say very easily is that he was my favorite guy in the more legendary tags, which is a lot of what I go off of with this given my admittedly limited amounts of watching. I fully admit that there may be nuance that I'm not prepared to get as of yet. It's probably an equal combination Watching Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi matches (especially from 93-94 on) tends to feel like homework to me.

A better wrestler when drunk than RVD when high. Neither of them are as good as Mad Dog Vachon with a prosthetic leg, however.

I'm going to make a few superficial suggestions here: 1.) A lot of the people who are drawn to Taue are people who came to these matches first in the last few years. Not all, but a lot. This suggests one of two things: 2.) That A ) Taue is more accessible than Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi and that more watching/rewatching, would reveal more nuance with the latter three or 3.) That B ) Values have changed significantly since the early-mid-late 90s and Taue brings elements to the table that were not valued as much during those times and are valued more now and/or Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi bring elements that are valued less. The cynical argument would that people are being difficult on purpose but I refuse to ever suggest that for our community.

The sparsity of lucha footage is so frustrating here. I loved Sangre Chicana vs. Perro Aguayo but I don't think we have a whole lot else from either of them that year.

My realistic expectations are these: 1.) Women get the opportunity to work very good matches in NXT 2.) Women get called up. 3.) Women have no chances to have good matches. 4.) I stop caring about them because I'm not all that interested in 5-7 minute long divas matches, even ones which are technically well worked 5.) I'm more interested in things like Sasha vs Becky, and the next crop of NXT female talent get the opportunity and direction to work those matches. 6.) I care about those matches and the cycle continues. This is the one situation I can think of where I'm going to care about good/great matches more than good/great wrestlers. On some level, I think Bill's point is this: What's the point to NOT being "green" if it's just going to leave to pointless empty five minute popcorn filler TV matches? Ultimately, who cares who's less green/more experienced if they never get to show it? I think it's an economy of scale issue since this comes up a lot with GOAT. I'm personally interested in a ten minute Regal TV match. I'm not sure I'd be as interested in a five minute Regal TV match. On the flip side, I'm sort of interested in some of the Superstars/Divas matches on Main Event that get more time than the ones on Raw/Smackdown, so I'm consistent in that regard, at least, but those matches are relatively few and far between. So basically, yeah, Matt's right, and the poster child for his argument is probably Paige. I know that came up a lot on the reaction shows last year. Ultimately, I don't think being right matters in a practical sense here. In this case, far, far more so than most, opportunity is EVERYTHING.

I think criteria is important. It's going to be an issue with the GWE list in general. I imagine Matt's idea of what makes for a good wrestler may differ from some of ours. Our criteria differ between one another. We can only get at truth here through watching matches and looking for patterns. Other people have different ways of getting at it.

That's where I am right now but I might switch Misawa and Kawada. Misawa's layering of spots in matches and in between matches (and maybe other people should get credit for this as well but it always seems like him that does it) is just too down my alley.

There you go then. Were there Sarge matches that didn't make the cut?

If Hansen was the greatest of all time, he could find a way to work around that compellingly. If he was the fifth greatest of all time, maybe he couldn't.

I know I heard somewhere that they thought he was getting too over as a face so they stopped it. Same with the Cesaro swing before their turn.

My favorite Hansen performance that I've seen so far is the Bockwinkel one. (Not saying the best, but my favorite).

This is also a company (and that goes to Steph and the divas too) that presents Fabulous Moolah as this amazing pinnacle to be admired, and not just in ring, but as a person. I think Steph delivered her eulogy.

I think Italian Stallion would be a good Crockett comparison.

i think what we're seeing is that Stephanie does want strong role models for her kids and to promote them. As long as they're in MMA and not wrestling.

My guess is that Will thinks that people hold Jericho's personality against him. There's been something of a backlash based off of his last few returns and elements of his podcast, self-consciousness, and towing the company line, which is especially poignant considering that a lot of us really associated ourselves with him in 98-01 or so. Personally, I think reevaluation of the in-ring work shows that Kane had a better 1999 in WWF than he did and the demand, by the WWF, that he learn to work their style from Kane, was not actually egregious in the least. But at the time it was fury-inspiring.

Except for when it comes to Sting's drawing, of course! Have you seen much of the Dusty Rhodes, Jr. stuff Dylan? He worked Turnbuckle, right? How much of that is out there?

Genius vs Hogan is fun.

There's just so much out there. I'm tempted to get a few months here or there from Lynch, something like the first quarter of 1998 CMLL TV (hypothetically), just something where there isn't a lot of information for online and not a lot of reviews, etc, in order to map it out for people, but I can't rationalize the cost when there's so much I haven't seen out there for free.

I want to know more about Eddie Gilbert no-showing because he didn't want to be part of the Varsity Club. I took a quick look through Observers and couldn't find that. The main thing I found was Dave praising how great the gimmick was and what it had done for Rotunda.

I would like to see more Black Reign, actually. I know that sounds crazy but all i found online a few months ago were some garbage matches.

I'm going to put this out there for discussion and it's mainly based on what people wanted for Rusev. Past HHH, Andre, and maybe Orton, are there any top card WWF heels that stayed on top of the card for more than a year, year and a half at a time? Yokozuna comes to mind. He showed up right before Royal Rumble 1993 and lasted until a little bit after Wrestlemania X. By KOTR he was in a tag match with the Headshrinkers. He was off of Summerslam and he'd be tagging with Owen by the next Wrestlemania. Umaga debuted, crushed some midcarders, crushed some giants, feuded against Cena, and then ended up with the midcard belt shortly thereafter. Savage may have feuded with Hogan earlier, but his main event turn was at the beginning of 89 and it more or less ended with the Main Event in 90 (though his feuds with Dusty and eventually Warrior were very high on the card). Andre barely counts because of the lack of big events in the mid-late 80s and the fact he was out for most of 87. It's basically just HHH and HHH protege Orton, right?