I really liked Steve Williams and he was gracious enough to talk with me. But HOFer? That's a head scratcher.

Did Williams go in as a Japanese candidate?

Did Williams go in as a Japanese candidate?

Yes.

I also have a ballot this year. Question for the veterans of the process: has there ever been a movement to get Gus Sonnenburg in the HoF? He was the biggest star in wrestling for a couple of years and a box office draw for a decade.

He's going in. He won't be on the ballot, and it's simply a matter of Dave deciding to put him in. No real need to do anything about it at this point.

What weight do you give Lesnar's MMA success? Can, or must, this be considered? If you only consider pro wrestling, he's a horrible candidate.

I give it zero.

 

I suspect a lot of people will give it a lot of credit.

I haven't done much research specifically for this, at least yet, so these are the candidates that interest me at first glance:

 

Gene & Ole Anderson: A weak class of historical candidates, but there is something here. Maybe it's because I grew up in the Carolinas, but these guys had an aura about them, even years later. I disagree with the idea that staying in one territory is necessarily a negative. I think it's also incredibly complimentary—their act obviously played well enough that they didn't HAVE to move to another territory.

Setting aside the Andersons, I tend to think Schmidt is an extremly strong candidate. As a worker, pretty much a kick ass Stan Hansen in the 50s. As a draw... a rather big drawing heel nationally. I suspect that if one had a time machine and dropped the equiv of his drawing and work into the 1980s that he would have gone in back in 1996. Hell, if I knew as much about him in 1996 as now, he would have gone in.

For me, Jimmy Hart & The Matsunaga family are the 2 biggest ommisions from the HoF that I can think of.

Wait... the Matsunaga's not on the ballot? What the fuck?

There seems to be a lot of Gene Anderson on those Cornette tapes. Don't know if he's a guy where people say "there's not enough footage"?

 

Also didn't they stay in Georgia because they had a financial stake in it?

Gene Anderson apparently suffered a stroke-like injury in the early '80s. So he may have stuck in the area as a matter of necessity.

I don't know enough about the Andersons to say if they are HOF-worthy or not, but what's this I've always read about Mid Atlantic being almost entirely a tag team territory until the mid 70s? What prompted that change, and were the Andersons not drawing on top part of what led to the change? Even through the 80s, tag teams were headliners for Crockett, so what exactly was it like before that change was made? This particular topic has always interested me.

Not surprised that Williams went in but I don't think he should have. He's a perfect member of the Hall of the Very Good.

 

Still don't know how Hart, Jarrett, Big Daddy, Hans or the Matsunaga's aren't in.

For me, Jimmy Hart & The Matsunaga family are the 2 biggest ommisions from the HoF that I can think of.

Wait... the Matsunaga's not on the ballot? What the fuck?

 

Yup, still not on.

I remember you telling me last year you thought they were but searching through the HoF list both in the Observer and elsewhear I never saw them listed.

I don't know enough about the Andersons to say if they are HOF-worthy or not, but what's this I've always read about Mid Atlantic being almost entirely a tag team territory until the mid 70s? What prompted that change, and were the Andersons not drawing on top part of what led to the change? Even through the 80s, tag teams were headliners for Crockett, so what exactly was it like before that change was made? This particular topic has always interested me.

This interests me as well. If you look at the Greensboro cards from 1962 to 1973, the main event and usually the semi-main event (and often one undercard bout) on almost all of these shows were tag matches. I believe 73 was the year Crockett Sr died, Crockett Jr took over, and George Scott was brought in as booker. I don't know the specifics, but I've read Scott wanted to take the territory in a different direction, emphasizing singles main events, often with the Johnny Valentine/Wahoo McDaniel feud on top (4 straight shows between Aug-Oct 1974; 6 out of 7 shows, including one tag match on Nov 7), but also several NWA title matches involving Jack Brisco. Tag matches remained a staple of the cards, but not nearly as prevalent in the main event slot as pre-73. Attendance, which was in the 5-7,000 range in 73-74, spiked to a consistent 9-12,000 by the end of 1975.

 

As far as the Andersons (Gene and Ole) go, they were mainstays in the territory from 1968-1978. Pre-73 they alternated between the main event and semi main event. Drawing wise, their first main event in Greensboro (Nov, 68) drew 2,986; their last prior to the shift towards singles main events (July, 73) drew 7,100, and the area seemed to be in much better shape in the early-70s than it was in the late-60s, but wrestling as a whole was much hotter at the time. The evidence I've seen doesn't point to them not drawing on top. They don't seem to have been super hot draws, but they weren't duds on top at all, and I don't think they contributed to Scott's decision to shift to singles main events.

I don't know enough about the Andersons to say if they are HOF-worthy or not, but what's this I've always read about Mid Atlantic being almost entirely a tag team territory until the mid 70s? What prompted that change, and were the Andersons not drawing on top part of what led to the change? Even through the 80s, tag teams were headliners for Crockett, so what exactly was it like before that change was made? This particular topic has always interested me.

As I understand it, the top babyface tag team in the Carolinas was Johnny Weaver and George Becker. The shift began after Becker left the territory in 1971. In 1973, George Scott became the booker, and he brought in Wahoo McDaniel and Johnny Valentine, who completely changed the style.

Also, Big Daddy is a horrible candidate.

Setting aside the Andersons, I tend to think Schmidt is an extremly strong candidate. As a worker, pretty much a kick ass Stan Hansen in the 50s. As a draw... a rather big drawing heel nationally. I suspect that if one had a time machine and dropped the equiv of his drawing and work into the 1980s that he would have gone in back in 1996. Hell, if I knew as much about him in 1996 as now, he would have gone in.

Is there a good starting point for reading about him?

Also, Big Daddy is a horrible candidate.

I understand the argument against him, but I don't see how he's a "horrible" candidate in a World where guys like Jericho and Saito are getting in

Setting aside the Andersons, I tend to think Schmidt is an extremly strong candidate. As a worker, pretty much a kick ass Stan Hansen in the 50s. As a draw... a rather big drawing heel nationally. I suspect that if one had a time machine and dropped the equiv of his drawing and work into the 1980s that he would have gone in back in 1996. Hell, if I knew as much about him in 1996 as now, he would have gone in.

Is there a good starting point for reading about him?

 

http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimate...ic;f=7;t=000393

 

Good thread that runs down the general case pretty well.

 

We also covered him some with Montreal historian Pat Laprade on a recent Wrestling Culture podcast also

Also, Big Daddy is a horrible candidate.

I understand the argument against him, but I don't see how he's a "horrible" candidate in a World where guys like Jericho and Saito are getting in

 

I'm not going to make a case for Jericho or Saito, but they at least had lengthy runs as highly respected workers. Daddy was, by a huge margin, a worse worker than anyone currently in the WON HOF. To make up for that, he needs to be absolutely bulletproof from a drawing standpoint, like Hogan/Sammartino level. From what I've read, he was only a strong draw from 1977 to 1981, which is more than negated by his role in killing not just a promotion but an entire country. The more I read about Daddy, the more convinced I am he's a joke candidate.

What are you reading about Daddy?

 

I strongly disagree that someone needs to be Hogan level to offset his shit level of work, but that's just a personal view of how I weight those sort of things.

 

Does anyone dispute that Daddy was the biggest cultural figure and draw in the history of native produced British wrestling? I'm seriously asking as I don't know. I'm hardly an expert on the Brit scene, though I have studied it some.

What are you reading about Daddy?

 

I strongly disagree that someone needs to be Hogan level to offset his shit level of work, but that's just a personal view of how I weight those sort of things.

 

Does anyone dispute that Daddy was the biggest cultural figure and draw in the history of native produced British wrestling? I'm seriously asking as I don't know. I'm hardly an expert on the Brit scene, though I have studied it some.

I think the only competition he would have is Kendo Nagasaki who was a huge name.

What are you reading about Daddy?

 

I strongly disagree that someone needs to be Hogan level to offset his shit level of work, but that's just a personal view of how I weight those sort of things.

 

Does anyone dispute that Daddy was the biggest cultural figure and draw in the history of native produced British wrestling? I'm seriously asking as I don't know. I'm hardly an expert on the Brit scene, though I have studied it some.

I think the only competition he would have is Kendo Nagasaki who was a huge name.

 

Just out of interest are you baased in the UK at all Nintendo Logic? I've always thought that it's hard to explain to someone who isn't from the UK just how big a name Daddy is/was over here.

Big Daddy was huge... he's now a joke figure. People remember Mick McManus, Jackie Pallo, even Les Kellet with fondness. I've never heard a single positive retrospective comment on Big Daddy. Not one.

Just for the hell of it i watched a few Big Daddy matches on youtube, and he comes off as a guy who played his role very well, between soaking up the admiration of the crowd on the way to the ring (and knowing how to return it effectively), to sort of being a big immovable object in the ring. I haven't seen nearly enough, though, and I have other things that are more of a priority to me right now. Did he at least "play his role" well, even if detractors for one reason or another find that role reprehensible and embarrassing?

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