If I did a list of my top 250 wrestlers based on "wrestling ability and talent", I reckon RVD wouldn't feature.

 

By your logic Jean Claude Van Damme should be a great wrestler. Probably 70% of what makes someone great is what goes on in their brain. That's why someone like Terry Funk in his mid-late-40s was so much better than RVD ever was or could be. Ditto Savage.

 

It's not just the ability to do things physically, it's knowing what to do.

 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, of course, but RVD is properly crap in my book. I may even see if I could get to 250 guys I legitimately rate above him.

Jerry, that's ridiculous.

 

250 is way too few.

Shall I individually cite the reasons for each of the twenty wrestlers I picked in the thread, back in the thread?

They are in my opinion, besides I CLEARLY stated that I was looking at it from wrestling ability and natural talent. Do you really think that Randy Savage could have done some of the stuff that Kurt Angle and Rob Van Dam do in the ring?

What they do in the ring has nothing to do with wrestling ability. Savage has more natural talent in his little finger than Angle and RVD do combined.

 

Shit I like RVD more than most people, but saying he has more natural talent than Randy Savage is fucking ridiculous.

They are in my opinion, besides I CLEARLY stated that I was looking at it from wrestling ability and natural talent. Do you really think that Randy Savage could have done some of the stuff that Kurt Angle and Rob Van Dam do in the ring?

What they do in the ring has nothing to do with wrestling ability. Savage has more natural talent in his little finger than Angle and RVD do combined.

 

Shit I like RVD more than most people, but saying he has more natural talent than Randy Savage is fucking ridiculous.

 

There are only 2 or 3 matches of Randy Savage's that I can say I enjoyed from start to finish, highly rate and that I think defined wrestling in the sense that I can say "this is what professional wrestling should be like". But, there are several matches from both RVD and Kurt Angle where I can say those things apply and more. I've seen numerous Randy Savage matches and I just haven't seen the big deal that people place upon him as a performer (dives under the table to avoid the outrage cannon).

 

For anybody curious, the 3 matches (I can think of 3) that I rate are (in no particular order):

 

1. Randy Savage vs. Ultimate Warrior - Wrestlemania VII

2. Randy Savage vs. Dynamite Kid - Wrestling Classic

3. Randy Savage vs. Ric Flair - Wrestlemania VIII

But, there are several matches from both RVD and Kurt Angle where I can say those things apply and more.

Which says more about you than it does the Macho Man.

To be honest, I see no point in continuing this.

Shall I individually cite the reasons for each of the twenty wrestlers I picked in the thread, back in the thread?

Actually yes and not because I don't agree with you, but because that would likely make for more interesting discussion

Do you really think that Randy Savage could have done some of the stuff that Kurt Angle and Rob Van Dam do in the ring? Do you really think that Randy Savage had the conditioning of a former Olympian or a kick boxer and gymnast? Do you really think that Randy Savage could put on a 30 minute match that involved the technical precision, athletic intensity and endurance whilst having the energy to sell, communicate with the audience and work efficiently with his opponent(s) that RVD and Kurt Angle have demonstrated on numerous occasions?

lol

 

That's all I've got.

 

Edit: Oh, and you kinda should answer this

Also where are these allegedly good selling performances from Angle and RVD?

Jerry, that's ridiculous.

 

250 is way too few.

In US only. Then you can add a good 250 in Mexico, a nice 250 in Japan, not counting women. At least.

I wouldn't rank Angle above Savage, but he did a good job of selling at Summerslam 2001 against Austin.

I wouldn't rank Angle above Savage, but he did a good job of selling at Summerslam 2001 against Austin.

I agree with this.

 

You could point to other examples up until the SD Six Era.

I actually think Angle from 98 to 2001 was really good, basically until he was a face.

The 1998 to 2001 Angle run is what really makes clear why so many here say Angle went downhill as a worker. He went from being a guy who generally knew how to put it all together to a guy who was just a spot machine.

 

I really want to know what happened there. I know his body was really banged up but I don't think that's the reason why. All I can figure out was that he got addicted to the crowd popping for his high spots and that's all he wanted to do.

Up to 2001 he was a junior partner in matches, having to follow the veterans lead. By 02 he was now the guy calling the shots.

That God awful Shane McMahon match - which is the one match I can think of that comes closest to embodying everything I hate about wrestling - getting so much love was probably part of it. But I'm not sure Angle was this great hand in 2000-2001, as much as he was a guy who had a lot of potential.

I think working with Benoit was a big part of it. Their feud was largely based on one-upmanship, and their matches were fast-paced with tons of nearfalls and submission reversals. The matches were highly praised, and Angle apparently decided that was how he should work with everybody.

I think working with Benoit was a big part of it. Their feud was largely based on one-upmanship, and their matches were fast-paced with tons of nearfalls and submission reversals. The matches were highly praised, and Angle apparently decided that was how he should work with everybody.

Yeah, this was when Angle seemed to change his style. People loved those matches with their crazy amounts of german suplexes and ankle locks, and he never went away from it afterwards.

I think part of it is that Angle was never a wrestling fan growing up. So he had no point of reference as to what a "great match" was, other than what the crowd popped for. And of course kicking out of finishers is going to get a big crowd reaction. So I could see a guy that doesn't really know what makes up a good wrestling match, thinking that because the crowd is popping for all these kickouts and finisher reversals, then this must be the way to work all my matches. It's still stupid but I can see how he got there.

My take on Angle in 2000 is similar to Loss: he was a good rookie with a lot of potential. But then he fell off the cliff when he bought into the go-go-go work rate featured on Smackdown in 2002.

It's a shame about Angle because he does a lot of things well offensively. Not too long ago I watched his matches with Guerrero from 2004 and was really impressed by the opening mat exchanges Angle pulled off in those. Of course the matches eventually went off the rails.

It's a shame about Angle because he does a lot of things well offensively. Not too long ago I watched his matches with Guerrero from 2004 and was really impressed by the opening mat exchanges Angle pulled off in those. Of course the matches eventually went off the rails.

Yes. I remember watching his cage match with Jarrett/Kennedy a few years ago, where he damn near died, and the finish to the first fall was a slick counter into an armbar for the submission. There was a short time towards the end of his WWE run were he (at their enforcement?) toned his act way down, but that went to hell as soon as he switched to TNA.

One thing I don't remember from that period, which is odd because I was a never-miss-a-match fan at that point: What happened to change Angle's in-ring character and style? During the feud with Triple H he was still happy-go-lucky Kurt Angle and then suddenly he's heavyweight champion and screaming "I'll break your fucking ankle!" at The Rock?

The rolling suplexes as count along Hase giant swing comedy spot started during the series opposite Austin.

It'd be more accurate to say that it started during Benoit's series with Austin. Benoit did ten Germans in a row in the Smackdown match, and of course Angle had to follow along.