The point I was trying to make is that struggling promotions are like a Rorschach test. A lot of people will decide that whatever they don't like is the reason the promotion is struggling. Some people see an ether soaked rag and conclude that ROH sucks because it's become Smoky Mountain of Honor. Others see a Hybrid Fighting Rules match and conclude that ROH sucks because Cornette is drinking Meltzer's MMA Kool-Aid (I really wish that talking point would die).

Others see a Hybrid Fighting Rules match and conclude that ROH sucks because Cornette is drinking Meltzer's MMA Kool-Aid (I really wish that talking point would die).

 

Well my "talking point" is that Cornette knows MMA is big as he sees Dave devote vast sections to it but he never actually reads/understands it. I said that months ago as ROH doesn't convey any knowledge of what made UFC/MMA a success: Youth branding and coolness. It is very hard to make a case Cornette's booking isn't influenced by it as one of his main programs was based around a beef of the choice of training partners.

 

In that Guest Booker shoot I referred to earlier Cornette is wearing one of those terrible Affliction shirts. Meltzer years ago noted with glee in the Observer that Cornette was filling up a big ledger with new finishes inspired by MMA.

It is pretty funny that both Cornette and Heyman have gone all MMA.

 

John

I think it's time people stopped talking about Cornette like he's a wrestling genius. Truth is, he's really not. Having watched a lot of SMW, his strengths as booker were rerunning old Mid South and Memphis stuff that did get over, and using a crew of strong workers. But he also did a LOT of stupid shit. Stipulations didn't mean anything because they were regularly broken (Bob Armstrong comes back under a mask, Ricky Morton doesn't get his hair cut, etc). Cornette felt that if he screwed the fans out of something they didn't want to see, they would think it was OK, but the truth is, eventually the fans got tired of being promised something and not delivering.

 

He also didn't know how to book a top babyface to save his life. Brian Lee wasn't ideal as a top babyface to begin with, but Cornette did him no favors. Smothers was a great top babyface, and the booking constantly dicked around with him. Fact is, in four years, the only babyfaces that weren't hurt by the booking were the Dirty White Boy (and his turn was admittedly pretty great), the Rock 'n' Roll Express, and Bob Armstrong.

 

Based on his track record, Cornette is not nearly as smart as people think he is. He is buying right into the Dave Meltzer "pro wrestling is MMA" talking point BS and trying to attract an MMA audience for pro wrestling. That's not going to work, because MMA fans don't want to watch a fake version of a real sport, when the real thing is already horribly overexposed in this country. The whole game plan just isn't going to work, and I'm sure five years from now, Cornette will have all sorts of excuses as to why it didn't work, but the fact is, it's not a good plan and the proof is right there in the open with ROH's poor gates outside of a few markets.

This post really nails it. I don't know that Cornette needs to be a wrestling genius, as long as the angles he copies are good and fit what he is trying to accomplish. I don't really expect originality in wrestling booking, as most of the time, it doesn't produce anything worth watching. But yeah, Cornette is nearly as much in the bubble as Vince McMahon.

It is pretty funny that both Cornette and Heyman have gone all MMA.

 

John

MMIA?

Every promotion has been influenced by MMA in recent years. ROH just doesn't have the talent to draw nationally.

Every promotion has been influenced by MMA in recent years.

Has the NFL been strongly influenced by MMA in recent years? The EPL?

 

John

Every promotion has been influenced by MMA in recent years. ROH just doesn't have the talent to draw nationally.

That's true. But RoH was making it a focal point of the company. There's a difference between Jeff Jarrett doing the Double M-A gimmick or Taker busting out MMA moves in matches and doing an entire feud like it's an MMA match. When workers and fans are complaining about it, there's a problem.

 

And I agree, they don't have the talent to draw nationally but they could still help themselves by not doing things that everyone clearly seems to hate.

I was watching WWC tv today and they had Davey Richards and Melina vs Velvet Sky and some WWC wrestler. It was amazing to watch Davey in this enviorment where he's not doing the Fake MMA thing and doing heel stooging. He even sold offense for Velvet. If Davey was more like that all the time, I'd enjoy watching him.

 

 

Also since this seems to be a all ROH topic, I was watching the first ROH show that I found in some discs I got and the homophobia in the Christopher Street Connection vs Da Hit Squad match was off the charts. Especially the commentary with Corino and the CZW guy. It was quite sickening actually.

I vaguely remember that. Corino was a fucking terrible announcer.

In that Guest Booker shoot I referred to earlier Cornette is wearing one of those terrible Affliction shirts.

How does that rate compared to Cornette doing a shoot in a South Park shirt?

I was watching WWC tv today and they had Davey Richards and Melina vs Velvet Sky and some WWC wrestler. It was amazing to watch Davey in this enviorment where he's not doing the Fake MMA thing and doing heel stooging. He even sold offense for Velvet. If Davey was more like that all the time, I'd enjoy watching him.

 

 

Also since this seems to be a all ROH topic, I was watching the first ROH show that I found in some discs I got and the homophobia in the Christopher Street Connection vs Da Hit Squad match was off the charts. Especially the commentary with Corino and the CZW guy. It was quite sickening actually.

It's even worse when you factor in that the CSC were working as babyfaces everywhere else basically doing a Gay Hit Squad gimmick. RF has...issues.

Every promotion has been influenced by MMA in recent years.

Has the NFL been strongly influenced by MMA in recent years? The EPL?

 

John

 

Do you have a point?

I think someone else nailed it earlier in the thread. If you want to watch MMA, it's not really a problem finding it. It's everywhere right now. If you're tuning in to ROH, you probably want to watch pro wrestling.

It's even worse when you factor in that the CSC were working as babyfaces everywhere else basically doing a Gay Hit Squad gimmick. RF has...issues.

I will never stop being amused by the fact that the very first thing that happened on the very first show from the honor/workrate company was a sportz entertainment segment featuring two dudes making out.

from the honor/workrate company

I'm always amused ppl took this so literally.

 

It was only ever really just a marketing gimmick for them but ppl bought so much into the "pure sports wrestling" BS that they tended to ignore that the company always had feuds and angles and whacky characters and all the other "sports entertainment" gaga too.

Christopher Daniels broke the "Code of Honor" on the very first show. So it was really just a gimmick.

I think someone else nailed it earlier in the thread. If you want to watch MMA, it's not really a problem finding it. It's everywhere right now. If you're tuning in to ROH, you probably want to watch pro wrestling.

Isn't this true of shoot style in general? I certainly think so, but not too many people here seem to agree.

Is what true of shoot style?

Edit.

Is what true of shoot style?

That there's no market for it now that the real thing is readily available.

Sure, but are there still promotions like UWFI, RINGS and PWFG? Or are you saying that modern eyes are going to have a tough time enjoying the old stuff? Just want to understand.

Sure, but are there still promotions like UWFI, RINGS and PWFG?

No, and I think that's part of his point. Aside from the occasional Inoki exhibition show or Battlearts zombie tribute, even in Japan it's awfully tough to find shoot-style nowadays. And that's the only country where it's ever been remotely popular. ROH is stupid to do this faked shoot stuff. Real MMA fans can tell it's phony and resent the falseness, while wrestling fans usually find it a boring spectacle which abandons way too many of the things that make wrestling so fun. It's kinda the same thing as all those worked boxing matches we've had on shows throughout the years; there's been lots of them, but how many have been any good or drawn a single dime?

I'm not saying I disagree with this, but I am having trouble understanding the relevance of the question. Those promotions haven't been around for over a decade, long before MMA got popular. (Well, RINGS moved to shoots ...)

Pretty sure NESLogic meant "isn't it probably true that worked-shoot style style has largely gone out of fashion, with practically no fans remaining, because real shoots are so incredibly easy to find nowadays"? You can almost mark a direct correlation between the popularity of the fake shoots and the current mainstream popularity of the real ones. And how many fans would pay to watch two guys pretend to have a fight if they're not running the ropes and working the crowd and doing a bunch of stuff besides fake-circling-each-other or fake-laying-in-the-guard?