It's been stated by Dave several times before he was put with Heyman that Vince recognizes Cesaro is a good wrestler but felt he was boring and thus was slapped with the "he won't ever draw money" label. It seems like he's been booked ever since then in a manner to justify that viewpoint. I don't get how putting him with a manager (Heyman is awesome, but this is one guy in the mid card who didn't need a mouthpiece) who only put over another guy and taking away his most over move was supposed to help the guy.

NM

Cesaro's decline has nothing to do with losing to Sheamus and everything to do with just generally being booked all wrong for much of his tenure in WWE. Losing to Sheamus after the swing doesn't even enter into the conversation IMO. Cesaro was losing heat way before Payback.

 

Eh, I think "losing to Sheamus immediately after delivering your signature move and, thus, crushing any semblance of credibility for your recent heel turn" counts as a pretty significant example of poor booking. (Is it the worst that Cesaro has had to deal with? I guess that's up for debate.)

 

I do agree that the heel turn itself did start the decline before Payback, though, because people instinctively wanted to cheer for the guy; I just think the loss to Sheamus (and the nature of that loss) greatly accelerated the process.

 

I'd also disagree that Cesaro's matches have lacked emotion -- he's been involved in some of the best matches that WWE has put out this year. (Brotherhood/Real Americans on Main Event, Cesaro/Zayn on NXT Arrival, maybe even Cesaro/Cena on the 2/17 Raw.) If we really mean "storyline-driven" when we talk about "emotion," then I would ask if Cesaro's really been given the opportunity to have that sort of match to begin with.

I don't mean that. I mean getting a crowd into a match through heel mannerisms, great facial expressions and ability to get sympathy on his opponent, instead of just getting people to pop for his highspots.

The loss to Sheamus didn't hurt him at all and honestly, your view is a bizarre way to look at it. He beat him after a small package and it lead to a rematch where Cesaro beat him in the same way. I think randomly dropping the Sheamus feud hurt more than just dropping a fall to him.

I don't mean that. I mean getting a crowd into a match through heel mannerisms, great facial expressions and ability to get sympathy on his opponent, instead of just getting people to pop for his highspots.

 

You didn't think that he built any sympathy for Zayn in the NXT Arrival match?

 

Sure, he's not an especially expressive heel, but would playing to the crowd be in line with his stoic strongman character in the first place?

 

The loss to Sheamus didn't hurt him at all and honestly, your view is a bizarre way to look at it. He beat him after a small package and it lead to a rematch where Cesaro beat him in the same way. I think randomly dropping the Sheamus feud hurt more than just dropping a fall to him.

 

Is a small package win in a non-title match on Smackdown really the same as a small package loss in a title match on PPV, especially with the latter happening seconds after Cesaro used the swing?

I think the Cesaro-Zayn matches were really good, but the emotion seemed to be that people were popping for the cool moves and didn't care who won or lost. Part of it is WWE style.

I know that wasn't the case for me, I was invested in what they were doing, not the moves they were hitting (though from a structure standpoint I thought both of their matches used moves wonderfully).

 

The loss to Sheamus didn't hurt him at all and honestly, your view is a bizarre way to look at it. He beat him after a small package and it lead to a rematch where Cesaro beat him in the same way. I think randomly dropping the Sheamus feud hurt more than just dropping a fall to him.

Is a small package win in a non-title match on Smackdown really the same as a small package loss in a title match on PPV, especially with the latter happening seconds after Cesaro used the swing?

 

No, but it was a way to show Cesaro can adapt and be just as good as Sheamus. They should have continued it rather than it just being dropped.

 

And I think you're misinterpreting the giant swing. He uses it as a set-up move for the Neutralizer. He pinned Khali with it a few times, but other than that it's just a way to show off his strength and to position people for his finisher. It's not being pushed as some world killer move.

I think the Cesaro-Zayn matches were really good, but the emotion seemed to be that people were popping for the cool moves and didn't care who won or lost. Part of it is WWE style.

speak for yourself

Who did you want to win and why? I'm curious.

I'm not saying that has to be the case for a good match, as I also think a match can be good if that is the predominant factor - wow, they're doing lots of cool stuff. I just think Cesaro not expanding beyond that would hurt him on top even if he was getting pushed harder. I was really impressed with the guy after seeing the Cena match, but that was around the time I started watching week-to-week. And when he pulled out those impressive spots as signature moves, they meant less to me and he just became a modern version of early 90s Scott Steiner - who also had some great matches, mind you.

A lot of people were pulling for Sami to win against Cesaro, in the building and on social media.

 

Cesaro has "dumbed down" his wrestling style in the past couple of months but throughout 2013 he was really great at pacing his spots and working in moves like a chickenwing or a sleeper when the match called for it. I mean the guy can make a chinlock mean so much. Hopefully now that he's lost Heyman he can move back to that style.

Anyone else notice they toned down the language tonight in the Steph/Brie segment compared to the last few weeks? Wonder if they got any complaints from parents or something. Or maybe in means nothing and it returns next week

If parents weren't happy with the language in the Steph/Brie segments, they're gonna be FURIOUS with that Cena/Lesnar video package.

Who did you want to win and why? I'm curious.

I didn't really care who won or lost (rarely do nowadays tbh), but I was totally caught up in the story they were telling. Zayn trying to get his respect and hang with a guy who is in a different league at that point. The way Zayn would pull out all the stops but would eventually end up getting getting cut off by some brutal reversal from Cesaro. I thought Cesaro did a great job of being the guy who had to reluctantly decimate this plucky underdog.

 

I mean I guess none of that counters your point that he hasn't grown as a heel, but I think he's definitely capable of being emotionally engaging. I haven't watched ROH in forever but I remember him being a decent heel back in like 2006.

Cesaro's been a dead man walking ever since Sheamus gave him a clown nose at Payback by insta-winning immediately after the Giant Swing. There was a fair amount of pushback here at the time, but I think you can trace a very noticeable decline in the crowd reaction to him after Payback, especially once he dropped the Swing altogether. They're going to have to rebuild him whenever (if?) they decide, in their infinite wisdom, to finally get behind him for real.

 

I shit on that finisher at the time, going against the tide of the majority of this board. Glad to see someone else finally point out what was always obvious to me. It was a horrendous finish that unintentionally (?) buried the fuck out of Cesaro. I don't think that alone is responsible for his recent decline, but it sure as hell didn't help.

So apparently Ambrose's stipulation for his match against Rollins at Summerslam is...

 

 

A Lumberjack match? ugh

 

Spoilers seem very vague this week. There was also a picture on the production truck that said Smackdown will air at 8PM on SyFy every Thursday (can't post the image for some reason).

Yeah that was disappointing, you'd think he'd come up with something more crazy than that. As it is, this screams angle advancement. Either the Authority somehow gets people they want as the lumberjacks or its a big flashing red light that someone's going to turn.

Why can't Ambrose and Rollins just have a street fight? Or is that spot reserved for Randy Orton and Roman Reigns?

Why can't Ambrose and Rollins just have a street fight? Or is that spot reserved for Randy Orton and Roman Reigns?

 

I guess they are saving the street fight/big gimmick match for NOC. At this point that seems like a more important show than Summerslam.

Alvarez also said that Hunter might be the special ref in Steph/Brie which would foreshadow some Bryan involvement but he can't take bumps so I have no idea. Also the plan is for Nikki to turn heel eventually. So it seems this program will not be over at the PPV

The story decompression with Ambrose and Rollins wouldn't feel so grating if they had done this lumberjack stip for Battleground. As it stands now, though, this is absolutely brutal.

 

Other things about their handling of Ambrose lately that have been awful:

 

- Main Event last week: Having Del Rio interrupt his promo, step in the ring, KICK HIS BAD ARM, and escape from the ring without any retaliation from Ambrose at all until the match later on.

 

- Raw: Having Ambrose effectively steal Alicia Fox's post-match schtick as a distraction tactic during the Rollins/RVD match. Pouring soda into the MITB briefcase? Really? If Ambrose is really so consumed with revenge on Seth Rollins, why is he goofing around? (Better yet: why isn't he waffling Heath Slater with a chair to give him the instant DQ win?)

 

That said, that Raw match with Del Rio was absolutely solid.

the last 2 Raws have bombed in the ratings. I wonder if they are going to react by doing some extra dumb stuff in the upcoming weeks. And football is right there looming

Well Scott Hall was tweeting about a NWO reunion or something like that. Maybe him and Nash are Hogan's surprise guests next Monday? :lol:

I fail to see how that's funny. It's almost certainly going to happen and it's almost certainly going to be awesome.