But others do not love both of them. Discuss.

I am just going to self-ban from even being in here. There's no other path for me or there's going to be bloodshed.

Both are great fucking wrestlers. If you don't love both your are wrong at some point.

I would never say Jumbo isn't a great wrestler. Ever. I just instinctively dislike something about him. He's one of the only guys I've ever seen where I can watch a match, know it's good and still consider it an absolute chore to get through. It's one of the reasons that while I liked the AJPW Set, I found the NJPW Set much easier to get through and enjoyed it more.

Haven't we already fleshed out Jerry's bizarre inability to see Tenryu's charisma? What's the point of even arguing with someone who hasn't seen any of Tenryu in the '90s or '00s?

 

On Jumbo, there's nothing to be said about Dylan's position. He's seen a ton of him, understands that he's good and doesn't find him appealing. It is what it is.

I didn't want my hate thread to branch out into a Jumbo-Tenryu discussion. This thread serves its purpose.

I liked what I saw of Jumbo on the AWA set and against some other AWA guys from that period. He seemed to be trying hard to play against type and I think it worked better than other people did.

Incidentally, the 2 sets I have worked on to almost near completion that I have held off on releasing are Tenryu and Jumbo.

Jumbo & Tenryu were both great when they were teammates but to me they hit their strides after they broke up and both became basically the same character as they were pissed off guys in the 30's who wanted to beat everyone's ass especially each other. I watched all the AJPW stuff for the set and Jumbo was not nearly as tedious as some of the other guys on that set such as Choshu who I love but his stuff was way too repetitive. Both men were fucking awesome period.

I would never say Jumbo isn't a great wrestler. Ever. I just instinctively dislike something about him.

This is my position for Tenryu. Honestly, don't think the 90s stuff will change anything, seen enough to know.

What 90's Tenryu have you seen?

Only the January tag match from 1990 yearbook so far. My plan is to watch each of the yearbooks in sequence. The last 6 months have been a bit of a busy time for me, so I've been slow as hell getting through AWA and 1990 -- most weeks I barely have time to watch a show for the podcast and record it. However, 2013 should be different and the yearbooks are quite a breezy watch. So I will be seeing probably all the major Tenryu matches in due course.

 

He's a guy I'm predisposed not to get on with though. He's never going to be my favourite guy. I'll give him his dues and he is legitimately great in many matches from 86 to 89 that I've seen but I don't like him. Possibly I don't get him. He has a face I find it difficult to read. Look at his face here:

 

 

That was his face as a young babyface. That was his face as a rebellious heel. That's his face at the start of a match. That's his face after he's taken a beating. That's his face when he's fired up. That's his face when he's happy, when he's pissed off, when he's against a guy he doesn't care about, when he's in a blood feud.

 

I don't GET that. Why doesn't his fucking face ever change?

 

Call me shallow, but my trouble with Tenryu boils down to that.

I don't dislike Jumbo as such. I just dislike when people run around saying "Ooh, Jumbo's the best," which is a kneejerk reaction since I probably went through a stage where I also thought Jumbo was the best. I do think his early 80s period is boring as shit. I didn't get the All Japan set, but I watched that Kerry Von Erich match and was bored shitless. With Tenryu, I always get psyched up to watch one of his matches and wind up disappointed. I can't get into his WAR stuff at all. It all seems like cookie cutter Riki Choshu style stuff to me and Tenryu is so clumsy. I could never forgive out why people turn a blind eye to him blowing stuff.

Only the January tag match from 1990 yearbook so far. My plan is to watch each of the yearbooks in sequence. The last 6 months have been a bit of a busy time for me, so I've been slow as hell getting through AWA and 1990 -- most weeks I barely have time to watch a show for the podcast and record it. However, 2013 should be different and the yearbooks are quite a breezy watch. So I will be seeing probably all the major Tenryu matches in due course.

 

He's a guy I'm predisposed not to get on with though. He's never going to be my favourite guy. I'll give him his dues and he is legitimately great in many matches from 86 to 89 that I've seen but I don't like him. Possibly I don't get him. He has a face I find it difficult to read. Look at his face here:

 

 

That was his face as a young babyface. That was his face as a rebellious heel. That's his face at the start of a match. That's his face after he's taken a beating. That's his face when he's fired up. That's his face when he's happy, when he's pissed off, when he's against a guy he doesn't care about, when he's in a blood feud.

 

I don't GET that. Why doesn't his fucking face ever change?

 

Call me shallow, but my trouble with Tenryu boils down to that.

Because in Japan he's being a legit badass. Whether it's a sumo wrestler stepping up to the dohyo, a judoka or Bunta Sugawara in a yakuza film, a poker face is a legit sign of toughness in Japan. Jumbo used to make facials like Arnold Schwarznegger pulling that thing out of his nose in Total Recall, but I think he was just trying to ape the Americans he'd worked with.

I can accept that and that it's lost in translation for me -- and Jumbo's exposure to working the US may well be why I find him much easier to like and relate to.

 

I will never be Japanese and no amount of me understanding what you just told me will make it easier for me to appreciate what is known as Tenryu's charisma.

 

I think a certain amount of things getting lost in translation is why there's certain other guys -- Dick Murdoch, Terry Gordy -- I find it difficult to get into too. I talked with Chad about this. Makes it a lot easier to appreciate Murdoch when you can see guys like that in your local bar. I live in

What's funny is that I always find Jumbo unbelievably bland, even when he's trying to fire up.

 

In any event a lot of the Tenryu I really like is post-90. I think the awesome singles match with Hashimoto is on youtube to take point to one example of a Tenryu match I absolutely love.

Dylan, for what it's worth I also thought Jumbo was very bland until about 85 or 86. Then something happens, it's like a switch is flicked and he becomes a total badass, "the man". Cranks up the stiffness, the intensity, the pace of working. Partly it is down to the atmosphere of Choshu coming in, but I think Jumbo became that guy even before then.

 

Do you think Jumbo is bland in 86? What about in the famous matches with Tenryu in 89?

 

My only real disappointment with him in that period is that there was something lacking in the matches with Hansen.

I think Jumbo and Tenryu brought out the best in each other as a rule.

I can accept that and that it's lost in translation for me -- and Jumbo's exposure to working the US may well be why I find him much easier to like and relate to.

 

I will never be Japanese and no amount of me understanding what you just told me will make it easier for me to appreciate what is known as Tenryu's charisma.

 

I think a certain amount of things getting lost in translation is why there's certain other guys -- Dick Murdoch, Terry Gordy -- I find it difficult to get into too. I talked with Chad about this. Makes it a lot easier to appreciate Murdoch when you can see guys like that in your local bar. I live in

I don't think you have to be Japanese to understand it. The strong, silent type is an archetype in Western culture too. Think Cary Cooper.

Yeah, there's a big overlap between cowboy culture and samurai culture. Look at how Yojimbo became A Fistful of Dollars and The Seven Samurai became The Magnificent Seven. For what it's worth, I think facial expressions are overrated. I never got why people like it when wrestlers ham it up like Jim Carrey on acid.

I actually sort of prefer Japanese wrestlers that aren't as emotive as others. Something about the Misawas and Kawadas and Taues and Tenryus just makes me pay more attention to them than a guy like Kobashi who clearly has more showmanship. When the announcer says 'Misawa Mitsuharu' Misawa just puts his hand in the air while warming up. Kobashi will hold his wrist, looking like he's in anticipation of the announcer saying 'Kobashi Kenta', then Kobashi will throw his fist in the air and have a certain look on his face. I can't exactly say why but the less enthusiastic guys have something about them I prefer. Tenryu is great because he's usually in that mood of "doesn't matter who this guy is, I'll just break his nose. Whatever. I don't give a shit." They all use the perfect facials for the right times and I'd say they all have a certain charisma, but I love their stoicism and how it stands out in a profession where people tend to needlessly yell their head off like a Super Saiyan. I get that the yelling and the 'fire' can get people into it more, but I look those stoic guys and think they're badass.

I never got why people like it when wrestlers ham it up like Jim Carrey on acid.

Edge says hello.

Got Jumbo comfortably in my top 10 of all time and he is in contention for #1. Probably wont to watch Tenryu also from a retrospective career arc standpoint and didn't dig a ton of him on the All Japan set until 87 but he is a pretty solid top 10 contender for me. Love both guys immensely.

I love Jumbo. He seemed to disdain whoever he was in the ring with. A lot of guys try too hard to convey hatred and intensity. Jumbo always maintained an even level of disdain ("WTF are you even doing in the same ring as me" type of attitude) and only really cranked up the hatred and rage when necessary.

 

Tenryu sometimes seems like he just ate a big Thanksgiving meal and is feeling too lethargic to work. He's grown on me, though, and I kind of get the whole stone-faced intensity thing.

I could've posted this in the Longevity thread as it's juts as relevant there, but given this is all about Jumbo & Tenryu opted for it here. On the 80s AJ set Tenryu simply didn't do it for me. I loved him in the Jumbo/Choshu tags as well as vs. Jumbo in singles matches, but otherwise I couldn't get into him at all. I loved the Baba/Hansen matches better than any Tenryu singles outing that didn't involve Jumbo.

 

Fast forward to the 90s and aughts, and its a whole other story. Love him vs. Hash in G1, love him in WAR vs. NJ, as well as badass Tenryu vs. AJ nearly a decade later. Perhaps he had to grow into being the surly old bastard I eventually grew to love, but I did not connect at all with the clean cut, blase greaseball frrom the 80s.

 

Jumbo? Easily my favorite from the 80s set and top 5 on my GOAT list.