I enjoy listening to them even when I disagree with what you guys are saying. There are a variety of reasons I don't really think it's for me, but "it wouldn't be fun" isn't one of them.

Well we still have Dave Musgrave who can represent when he's around.

I do think the Bock-Martel matches are awesome and both better than Martel-Rheingans. But Will and Johnny's irrational hate for that match is amusing.

Irrational? Bah. I've seen more realistic fighting in a high school production of West Side Story.

I do think the Bock-Martel matches are awesome and both better than Martel-Rheingans. But Will and Johnny's irrational hate for that match is amusing.

Irrational? Bah. I've seen more realistic fighting in a high school production of West Side Story.

 

If you enjoy matches with Crusher and Baron Von Raschke lack of realism is not the way to go after this match.

 

And West Side Story can be brutal

Hey man....we can go back and forth and goof around about wrestling.

 

 

But you watch your mouth about West Side Story.

 

 

-(Johnny Sorrow, who always cries when Tony dies.)

A lot of us think Martel as white was the funniest thing I've heard in a while.

Yeah, the second it came out of my mouth I realized I fucked up.

Man, that was a MUCH better shout out than last time. I don't even think I'm going to weigh in on Brad vs Martel then. That bought my neutrality.

 

Wow. Will really detests Canadians huh? He's the Zeb Coulter of podcasts. I'm going to picture him with Dutch Mantell's giant mustache from now on.

 

Also, while I agree that neutered heel Mr. Perfect is a shade of what we see here, Hennig has some pretty solid heel matches in AWA and his 93 face run in WWF is actually pretty great as a face. The Doink series of three matches, the Hart tag vs Luger/Ramon, the Bret match at KOTR, the fun six elimination man with Jannety/Tatanka vs Michaels/Diesel/Bam Bam. Granted, he had pretty lackluster matches vs Michaels.

I will say something in general about face vs face matches though. If something tells a good enough story and a compelling enough story, I don't think you need nastiness. There are narratives that don't necessarily involve wrestlers being nasty. They can be good and compelling, so long as the wrestlers are trying to win. I think the idea that a match innately needs hate to be good is very dismissive.

 

This goes back to my argument about violence or blood or whatever else.

 

Hate is a tool in telling a good story, not an end in and of itself.

I'm waiting for Musgrave to be back on so Will can ask him if he's one of them Canadians trying to pass off as white.

Everyone has to go watch that Flame shooting Bob Armstrong thing.

 

And maybe even cooler are clips of Heel Bob.

Kris - "oriental sleeper"? What's the difference between that and a regular sleeper?

 

Also, shit, you do sound a bit like Chad.

 

The CCR number 2 stuff was really funny. I'm currently in the interval here. Gearing up to see this fucking Brad Reingans match.

Couldn't have hated that Brad Rheingans vs. Martel match more. What was that doing on the set? Sorry Dylan, I really hated it -- as my comments on DVDR just now attest.

I really don't know where the hatred for this match is coming from.

Kris - "oriental sleeper"? What's the difference between that and a regular sleeper?

AWA context: Bockwinkel and Heenan brought a variation of the sleeper back from Japan to try and regain the AWA title from Bockwinkel after Verne got it back in 1980. There's an interview (is it on the set? I can't remember) with Bock and Heenan demonstrating the difference between Gagne's and Bock's. Bock's, of course, is portrayed as the non-choking one.

 

If that question refers to some in-joke fro the watch party, then never mind.

I really don't know where the hatred for this match is coming from.

I don't get it either.

 

I said it at the DVDVR but it's an opinion I don't respect. It's rare for me to say that even when I disagree with someone as I can usually at least figure out why people think something is good that I think sucks or vice versa. In this case it's so bizarre I have to treat it as the functional equivalent of "I think The Crusher is the greatest worker in AWA history and this set proves it."

Dylan, honestly, I feel the opposite. The fact you've gone in so hard for that match has actually made me question your views on everything else too -- in the world. Ever. I'd go as far as to say that it's the least enjoyable match I've seen in the past 12 months, and I've seen at least three Ranger Ross matches in that timeframe.

 

Brad Rheingans makes Dory Funk Jr. look like The Rock. Brad Rheingans in a face vs. face match with a dead crowd working 10-minute limp submission holds? Are you fucking kidding me?

See, I generally like Brad, and I LOVE Martel. But the match stinks and the finish is ridiculously awful.

I didn't say it made me question your views on everything else. I said it's an opinion I can't respect and I don't.

 

I have outlined explicitly why I thought it was a good match. Frankly the fact that you praise the Bock v. Martel matches so much and hated this match so much while simple citing Rheingans is a good indication that it all comes down to the fact that you just don't like Rheingans and don't believe he's capable of having a good match. Because on merit I fail to see what was radically different about this match and the Bock v. Martel matches other than perhaps the fact that the escapes of the holds in Rheingans v. Martel were more interesting/different.

 

I suppose we can pretend they laid around and holds and did nothing, but I don't live in a fantasy world.

Anyone who ever says Martel-Rheingans is bad again and argue it because "the holds were boring" or "it's face vs. face" wah, wah, wah, I'm going to troll forever and ever on this board just to be a dick. That's my opinion on those who think this match sucks.

Never at any point did I feel like they were actually wrestling. It felt like an exhibition of armbars, submissions, and cartwheels. I DID like the one cool criss cross spot. And then Brad crotches himself and he apparently has the biggest and most sensitive nutsack in the world, as he's acting like someone shot him in the balls point blank with a shotgun...and then Martel's there to hold him, massage his sack, and refuse to win.

 

Face vs. face is fine, but not this one.

The only line of defense I can think of for the match is that its placement on the set comes at a time when there's a rush of good matches. The second half of disc 3 is getting towards All-Japan levels of consistency.

 

The Bock vs. Martel matches are excellent, one of them is truly great and potential #1 contender. The Bock vs. Hennig match has great energy and an interesting story. The 6-man tag is lots of fun. That's a very solid stretch of matches.

 

And then in the middle of it, you have this 70s-style matwork borefest with no heat.

 

Part of me does think that if this was on, for example, disc 1 right next to something like Verne vs. Bock, it might not seem quite so objectionable. So I'm willing to say that context -- the context of everything around it being pretty great -- might make it seem worse than it is.

 

I don't see an argument for saying this is anywhere near the level of the other Martel matches on disc 3 though, especially not the ones with Bock. And yes, of course, Brad is the differentiator. That and the face vs. face dynamic (Jumbo doesn't count as a face for me in AWA, he's a unique case). So take away Martel's fire, his comeback spots, and a lot of what makes him great is taken away. You're left with a goody-two-shoes white meat babyface who is technically proficient and not a lot else. In there against Brad who is that to the power of 10.

 

I can think of situations where I might enjoy Brad. For example, getting his face smashed in against any heel. But this match was more or less set up to extenuate all of the things I don't like about him.

 

I find it really odd that the guy who hates Mike Rotunda doesn't also hate this dude.

Crusher's punches look like they wouldn't hurt a handicapped hemophiliac infant and that cage match is basically an extended squash, but I don't pretend it's a shitty match

To be fair, when I went back and watched Crusher again, I really thought he stunk.

I don't know if this is a great comparison but Jerry lucha might not be best for you. I mean Martel-Rheingans is not lucha matwork but if you can't get into escapes and unique mat work then lucha might not be your calling. Again, it's far from the best comparison but I can't see you enjoying it all.