Just watched Dr Wagner Jr & Mistico v Ultimo Guerrero & Rey Bucanero from CMLL 03/12/05. Liked the match a lot and it probably deserves a place on the list I'm doing, but I'm having trouble understanding and getting used to lucha in a major way, so I don't really know where I'd put it. The way they build to technicos comebacks and work toward finishes is totally different from what I'm used to in American and Japanese wrestling, because there aren't really any hope spots in what I've seen so far and the crowd can't be heard for the damn horn. Also, what's the point in doing 2/3 falls when the first two falls end so quickly? And the horn in the crowd is annoying the Hell out of me because I'm not used to it and I want to hear pops and heel heat. I'm going to keep trying, but I'm struggling at the moment. Watched the trios match earlier on the show and it totally confused me. Do wrestlers actually *tag* in lucha or is it considered fair game for everyone to be in the ring at the same time? Or did I just watch a bad batch of lucha? Santo/Casas from 08/87 and Villano III/Atlantis from 03/00 were both matches I loved a great deal, but they were also singles matches, and I'm just getting confused watching tags and trios matches. Any help?

If someone gets knocked out of the ring then another teammate can come in.

 

Also, just in case you didn't know. Every team has a captain so you can either win a fall by pinning him or by pinning all the non-captain members of a team. It took me awhile to figure that out when I first starting watching back in 98.

 

A lot of the hope spots are the technicos getting one of the rudos in the ring alone.

So, in lucha, they're allowed to do doubleteams all they want? They don't have to be back on the apron by the count of five like in American wrestling, right? Or was the ref just being lax in what I watched? I was aware of the touch-the-floor rule, but I couldn't figure out what was going on because there was never really a legal man with two guys standing on the apron.

It's basically a free for all with nut shots and unmaskings being about the only thing you get DQed for.

 

A lot of the brawl type matches will see the rudos in the ring and basically taking turns triple teaming the technicos until they manage to fight their way out of the situation. Some brawls don't even settle down until the 2nd or 3rd fall.

In regards to the crowd, the Televisa sound mix is god awful, so you'll never really hear the crowd fully when watching CMLL. Sad but true.

Loss- instead of starting with the more recent matches, I know a handfull of matches that do a great job providing the overall flavor of lucha with guys you already know and it will help you grasp the rules better.

 

Do you still need this?

 

Tim

It would be fantastic if you could send me that. I think I would appreciate what I'm watching now more.

Look out for these matches:

 

Santo/Octagon/Rey Jr. vs. Fuerza/Panther/Psicosis (7/15/94 & 3/16/95 - AAA) - the first is not on Barnett's comps but Lynch has it and I have it and still need to send to Will for conversion. The second is on Barnett's comps.

 

Rey Jr./Winners/Calo vs. Psicosis/Heavy Metal/Picudo (2/7/93 - AAA) - I have this on the same tape as 7/15/94.

 

All three of these matches focus on straight first falls where they pair off for 2-3 segments (segment 1 usually mat work/comedy spots, sgement two rope running, segment 3 finishes). The second fall usually starts the same until the rudos take over. Remember that one ref is usually a face and one is a heel. They are in charge of the opposite team (ala Tirantes, the rudo ref, is in charge of the face team). So he will let rudo stuff go.

 

Watch those three matches, write about them with thoughts, comments, questions, and we will move on from there.

 

Tim

Rey Jr./Winners/Calo vs. Psicosis/Heavy Metal/Picudo (2/7/93 - AAA) - I have this on the same tape as 7/15/94.

I have already sent this to Will for conversion.

Yeah, I have the 2-7-93 match ready to roll.

 

I don't know about the others offhand. I think someone really needs to do a lucha primer or a lucha faq. One may exist but I don't know where to look.

 

I think lucha is also easier to get used to when you actually know some of the wrestlers. It is much easier to digest lucha when watching guys like Rey and Eddie in there than with some guy in a mask you have only read about.

 

Hell, I think you have the Los Gringos set. Sit back and watch that first.

Only thing about the Gringos Locos comp is that there is lots of crap in between the good stuff. Plus, it is really the height of "AAA Sports Entertainment Lucha" which isn't pure lucha. I don't know how to describe it.

BUt for someone just introducing themselves to lucha, I think it would make the transtition easier.

 

Personally, I have always been fascinated by the "dance" aspect of wrestling so lucha is right up my alley. After watching the 3-17-00 PPV, I was pretty much hooked. However, right now I think I have enough oif a grasp to understand some of the little nuances but still need to learn more. Maybe we can talk Bihari into making a lucha faq.

Lack of familiarity isn't the problem. The way they build and sustain heat is the problem, and spots that normally get a big pop in front of an American audience don't get one so much in front of a lucha audience. And not that I'm usually a mark for this sort of thing, but who are some of the stiffer guys in lucha who lay their stuff in?

Those matches I mentioned will def clear up the problems you listed above. My big peeves with lucha when I first started were:

 

- too much brawling

- rudo takeover segments with no rhyme or reason

- why "random thing" made the crowd pop

 

Tim

One of my favorites was when Val Venus came down to CMLL for a few matches and did his "Hello Ladies" promo in Spanish.

Well, singles matches are giving me no trouble at all. Just watched the first match on the Rey/Juvi set (unsure of the date -- finish is Rey's second interfering and beating up Juvi's second and Rey getting his hand raised) and it was a great, great match that I understood completely. Unbelievably hot false finishes and a great build to get there. Some of the better matwork I've ever seen coming from two guys that seem to be mostly renowned for high flying, and tons of hate with a very hot crowd. I loved, loved, loved this match -- somehow, the lucha I've liked has a way of seeming better than it really is, which makes me love it even more.

Loss, this match listing may help with dates. I have not had the chance to check and see if the comp I converted from Brian is the same one I received from Alfredo. If they are the same, this is the matchlisting....

 

Best of Rey Misterio Jr. vs. Juventud Guerrera

-Misterio Sr. & Jr. & Transformer vs. Fuerza, Juventud, Psicosis (4/2/95)

-Misterio Sr. & Jr. vs. Fuerza & Juventud Guerrera (4/9/95)

-Misterio Jr. vs. Juventud Guerrera (5/28/95)

-Misterio Jr. vs. Juventud Guerrera (7/31/95)

-Misterio Jr.& Juventud vs. Picudo & Aguayo Jr.(12/23/95)

-Rey Misterio Jr. vs. Juventud Guerrera - Cage Match - Car vs. Car (2/12/96)

-Rey Misterio Jr. vs. Juventud Guerrera -Car vs Car (8/12/96)

 

 

 

If not, then it is likely the Brian comp has more matches.

Thanks. I'm sure it's one of those, but I know that listing doesn't reflect what's on Brian's set. This one starts with a Rey/Juvi match, then is followed with a trios match involving Psicosis and then goes to what I think is a Misterio Sr & Jr v Juvi/Fuerza.

Well, just from that brief description, it appears the Alfredo set is missing the opening match and then falls in line with the rest of the set. Maybe Brian can help with this.

Still out of order.

 

Rey/Juvi is the first match, then the trios match, then the Misterios/Guerreras match. I sent a PM to Brian.

OK, Brian's set begins with a singles match, then is followed by ....

 

Loss...

then the trios match, then the Misterios/Guerreras match

Now, look at the following two matches on the matchlist I gave...

 

trios match: Misterio Sr. & Jr. & Transformer vs. Fuerza, Juventud, Psicosis (4/2/95)

Misterios-Guerreras match: Misterio Sr. & Jr. vs. Fuerza & Juventud Guerrera (4/9/95)

 

I stated that my matchlist may be missing the first match but from your description, it does fall in line.

According to Tim Cooke, it's 11/30/94 aired 01/21/95.

For TV, they had the following matches:

 

11/30/94 (aired 1/21/95) - their first TV match that has no finish (like you described). They also semi botch a spot in the corner with a cradle if I remember correctly.

 

4/21/95 (aired 5/95) - this is the Rey/Juve match after they had just got done watching loads and loads of AJPW, UWFI, NJPW, and AJW. Juve breaks out Otani's springboard spin kick, Rey uses the ocean cyclone suplex for a finisher, and the finish of the third fall is an insane dive by Rey into the crowd, leading to a double countout.

 

6/16/95 (aired in July) - haven't seen this in years.

 

2/96 - cage match, not so hot.

 

3/16/96 - handheld from Barnett from Tijuana.

 

8/96 - not so hot again.

 

They also have a match from 1994 on a comml release. Their 12/10/95 handheld match is now available on those comml DVD's that Konan recently released.

 

They had a 2/96 match air on Galavision UK but that is probably lost forever

 

Tim

They also have a match from 1994 on a comml release. Their 12/10/95 handheld match is now available on those comml DVD's that Konan recently released.

Desperados Del Ring volume 2? Anybody know where I could get reviews of the DVDs?

Actually, Vol-1 I believe. Vol-2 is *probably* the 3/16/96 Rey v Juve match from Tijuana (not Barnett's version) but the other guy whose name is escaping me that taped this stuff back in the day.

 

The Torch had a review for 1. The guy put up screen caps and the caps he put up were from the 12/10/95 match.