No, it was the local govt. dropping the ball pre-hurricane.

Again, the local government is the first line in disasters. It's always worked this way. They have to hold the situation together until the federal government shows up and gets shit together.

 

This was totally preventable had those buses been on the streets Friday taking the poor out of the area. They could've evaced the whole city with those buses.

 

This satetement is incorrect. Engineers were telling the feds and anyone who listened that the levees could not take that kind of hit for years. So, Bush cut funding.

I'm correct actually. Army Engineers said in an interview just a few days ago that the funding didn't matter because it was the upgraded levees that failed and led to the flooding. The upgrades even with the funding still wouldn't have been able to handle this storm.

 

 

Tis is another case of blaming the victim. The police force was busy dealing with rescue operations. If looters were grabbing food and drugs , so be it. In the 5 DAYS afterwards, when the police themselves were left for dead, just like the rest of the city, about 50% of the force walked. the way you worded your statement, it seems like you think the police themselves were the looters.

There were several police caught on camera looting. New Orleans is the 8th most violent city in the United States. Of course there were thugs in this situation that were going to do similar to what we've seen.

 

Also, you can't sit there and act like every fucking looter is a rapist and terrorist. Most were stealing goods for subsistence.

The why are they shooting at rescue workers. Why were they trying to loot a children's hospital with children still inside? Why did some girl get her legs broken so her attackers could more easily rape her? There is a very dangerous element running around that city right now that needs to be removed for everyone's safety.

 

And the federal govt. failed miserably, a point that many Republicans AND democrats agree on.

Yes, the feds could've done a better job but I'm holding off on blaming them right now. They had to play catch up from the minute they got there. Have you ever been assigned to a project that the person previous to you fucked up beyond recognition. Sometimes even when you're doing your best to correct the situation it looks like you're a fuck up. I still can't get over the picture of the buses just sitting there.

 

Well, he could have started by ending his fucking vacation.

It took Congress 5 days to get back into session to deal with this. Bush wanted a mandatory evacuation of the city before this even happened but the governor didn't get it done.

 

Is that the local govts. fault? The fucking local govt. doesn't even exist anymore except in name only. Is this a national disaster or a local disaster?

The early goings are absolutely the states fault. The planning is all local. Situations like this are why we fucking having local governments. Congress and the President don't have the time to manage every cities evac plans and emergency responses. The locals have to fend for themselves for at least the first 2-3 days. It didn't help in this situation that it didn't look like it was going to be as bad as it was until the flooding happened. The violence and shooting at rescue workers has only complicated the issue.

It's a fucking American disaster and Americans were let down and allwoed to live in third world conditions when it could have been prevented before (local and state blame) AND after (federal blame)... which is what we are tlaking about.

I'll agree with you except for the part in bold; the federal government can mobilize aid, but organizing that into a concerted effort - figuring out exactly what to get with that $71 million - takes time and getting the aid into there is a whole 'nother thing entirely, due to the aftermath of the disaster itself. And once the order is given, there's not really a lot that Bush can do - much of the capacity and responsibility in this situation lies in the hands of the people below him.

 

But does that stop people from taking potshots at him at the most inopportune times? Of course not, because he's probably only the most polarizing figure we've had in office in my lifetime. All reason and logic seems to leave the building whenever Bush comes into the discussion.

 

Am I disgusted by Kanye's statement? Not really, because he's got a right to have an opinion just like everybody else. No, I'm disgusted that he took the opportunity to say this during a fundraiser for aid - by saying that, he takes the attention off of the real issue at hand and puts it on himself and his own political ideals.

Congress was able to meet on a Sunday night to vote on Terri Schiavo, but poor black folks in NO had to wait five days. I haven't heard anyone here, on TV, or on the radio who can justify that.

 

Announcer: The relief operation is the largest ever conducted in America. It's being coordinated by the US Northern Command in Colorado. Leftenant Commander Sean Kelly explains how the relief effort is being organized.

 

Kelly: US Northern Command is the command that coordinates the military support for our federal and state agencies. They call up and request a capability and we try and provide that capability, whether it's medical resources, search and rescue helicopters, food, water, transportation, communications; that's what we provide.

 

A: So it sounds like you're providing a bit of everything. I mean, do you know how much you're actually providing?

 

K: Right now we've got 4,000 soldiers, sailors, airmen and marine and coast guardsmen supporting this. They've delivered more than 9 million meals, I can't remember how many millions of liters of water.

 

A: 9 million meals? Do you actually have 9 million meals?

 

K: It's those "meals ready to eat". The packaged meals that the Army takes out with them out in the field. We have 9 million of 'em ready. I know at least 100,000 went to the Superdome the other night to help the people out there in New Orleans. So they're staged at various places throughout Mississippi, Alabama, and Louisiana.

 

A: Now I'm sure you're aware of the criticism that the authorities have been slow to respond to this. When did you get the order to start relief work?

 

K: NorthCom started planning before the storm even hit. We were ready for the storm when it hit Florida because, as you remember, it crossed the bottom part of Florida, and then we were plaining, you know, once it was pointed towards the Gulf Coast. So what we did was we activated what we call defense coordinating officers to work with the state to say okay, what do you think you'll need, and we set up staging bases that could be started. We had the USS Baton sailing almost behind the hurricane so that after the hurricane made landfall it's search and rescue helicopters would be available almost immediately. So we had things ready. The only caveat is, we have to wait until the President authorizes us to do so. The laws of the United States say that the military can't just act in this fashion, we have to wait for the President to give us permission.

 

A: Now I gather that your engineers are also involved in pumping some of that flood water out of the areas.

 

K: Yes, our military personnel are helping to reconstruct the levees which frees up the engineers to start pumping out the waters so that hopefully New Orleans can be high and dry soon enough.

 

Fair enough. Resume the endless stream of venom.

Venom? Fuck that noise. If my government fails to a degree like this, you're goddamn right there's going to be venom.

 

You know what the President was doing, right? While NorCom was waiting for orders, he was eating cake at John McCain's birthday party and getting a guitar from a country singer at a fundraiser. THAT was more important to him that mobilizing the relief effort.

 

Was it that no one bothered to tell him there was troops waiting for his word? Did no one lean over inbetween fistsfuls of cake to whisper "hey, you want these troops in Colorado to help get people out before NO becomes an open latrine pit?".

 

 

That's pretty much the only two possible answers to why this became such a mess: either it was willful ignorance or mass incompetence. You make the call.

And I'll take mass incompetence, because we're dealing with issues on a national scope with a chain of command that involves thousands of people. I work in a multi-million dollar company and it amazes me everyday that the place manages to stay afloat - seriously, the level of gross incompetence involved in business decisions is astounding. It doesn't take a leap for me to project that onto a national scale and realize that our country is prosperous and successful in spite of itself, in spite of whoever's in office - Bush, Kerry, whoever.

Gotta love eBay.

I work for my local county, and I too am amazed the whole damn thing doesn't fall in on itself. Bureaucracy and incompetence are a dangerous tag-team.

 

I just read that the Gov of New Mexico pledged to send some of his guard troops to LA but the paperwork didn't come from Washington till THURSDAY for chrissakes.

I'm surprised somebody hasn't gotten those taken down yet. Oh well, I already got mine.

Help your fellow human beings in New Orleans and the Gulf Coast!  The Federal Government sure isn't!

Gotta love eBay.

I would wear that shirt. I think it'd be funny in an ironic kindof way. You know, since I'm white and don't support Bush.

 

I guess I can't really blame people for trying to exploit this situation for financial gain but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

 

I can't even watch the news on Katrina anymore. There's so many emotions that go through your head. How this has all become so political. How this has all become so racial. How so many people are so fickle. It's sad for so many different reasons, and that's all before you actually get to the tragic part.

 

Shit, it's depressing.

You better believe they'd have censored it. You think they want that kind of statement publicised?!

Thats what Im saying Mr Smyth. They wouldve. Which wouldve made the situation even more fucked up. Talking about America and its president and the network ready to take away an artists freedom of speech...think about that for a second. NBC is lucky their censor didnt take anything away from Kanye West. That wouldve caused ALL KINDS of problems he had.

I think Kanye says Bush doesn't care about Black people because while I don't find Bush a particuarly educated man, I know he knows that the majority of people that live in the affected areas of New Orleans are black and poor.  Bill Maher said it best last night when he said that, "Bush doesn't understand that the people in NO can't just pack up their Range Rover, grab a case of Poland spring water outta the garage and go to their summer home."

 

...had this been some upper crust white neighborhood instead of the 9th Ward of NO, help would have been swifter and more efficient than it has been to the people that are currently there.

Katrina's Victims Poorer Than U.S. Average

By FRANK BASS, Associated Press Writer

 

People living in the path of Hurricane Katrina's worst devastation were twice as likely as most Americans to be poor and without a car ? factors that may help explain why so many failed to evacuate as the storm approached.

 

An Associated Press analysis of Census data shows that the residents in the three dozen hardest-hit neighborhoods in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama also were disproportionately minority and had incomes $10,000 below the national average.

 

Money and transportation ? two keys to surviving a natural disaster ? were inaccessible for many who got left behind in the Gulf region's worst squalor.

 

Catina Miller, a 32-year-old grocery deli worker who lived in the Ninth Ward, a poverty-stricken New Orleans enclave created in the 1870s by immigrants who were too poor to find higher ground, said she certainly would have liked to have left the city before the hurricane hit.

 

"But where can you go if you don't have a car?" she asked. "Not everyone can just pick up and take off."

The government has proven in the past week how incompetent, unprepared and disorganized they really are. They've definitely shown mass incompetence. That said, I don't think it was intentional - I think it was honest-to-God cluelessness and Bush being his usual aloof self. The vacation in Crawford for the month of August has certainly affected this country in a major way on TWO occasions now, which also shows that the current administration didn't learn their lesson the first time around. Sek even pointed out that they were waiting on Bush to authorize action. If anything, we've seen that Bush is out of touch with the working class and the poor, because he probably hadn't thought about what poor people would do in the case of a mandatory evacuation. Hardly anyone who had the means to leave stayed, which shows the problem in itself and shows that Bush getting his way wouldn't have made the slightest difference. Even if what he wanted to happen happened, it would have been the wrong course of action because of its impracticality. And yes, I do believe if this happened in a rich, white area, the situation would have been handled exactly the same. When white people are in New Orleans, I think that negates any idea of this being a race issue, even if I do understand how some people can form that conclusion.

 

I still think the finger-pointing shouldn't start until every living soul is out of the city, though. Right now, the government having to answer to the media is only detracting from the goal of formulating a battle plan to get people out of the city. That half hour spent holding a press conference could have been used coming up with a speciific detailed plan that might have saved a few lives. I'm frustrated wtih the government exposing themselves as blithering idiots, but I'm *disgusted* with the media exploiting this for ratings.

Its the media, its where they excell.

 

Speaking of media people, have yall seen the email?:

 

Friday, September 2nd, 2005

 

Dear Mr. Bush:

 

Any idea where all our helicopters are? It's Day 5 of Hurricane Katrina and thousands remain stranded in New Orleans and need to be airlifted. Where on earth could you have misplaced all our military choppers? Do you need help finding them? I once lost my car in a Sears parking lot. Man, was that a drag.

 

Also, any idea where all our national guard soldiers are? We could really use them right now for the type of thing they signed up to do like helping with national disasters. How come they weren't there to begin with?

 

Last Thursday I was in south Florida and sat outside while the eye of Hurricane Katrina passed over my head. It was only a Category 1 then but it was pretty nasty. Eleven people died and, as of today, there were still homes without power. That night the weatherman said this storm was on its way to New Orleans. That was Thursday! Did anybody tell you? I know you didn't want to interrupt your vacation and I know how you don't like to get bad news. Plus, you had fundraisers to go to and mothers of dead soldiers to ignore and smear. You sure showed her!

 

I especially like how, the day after the hurricane, instead of flying to Louisiana, you flew to San Diego to party with your business peeps. Don't let people criticize you for this -- after all, the hurricane was over and what the heck could you do, put your finger in the dike?

 

And don't listen to those who, in the coming days, will reveal how you specifically reduced the Army Corps of Engineers' budget for New Orleans this summer for the third year in a row. You just tell them that even if you hadn't cut the money to fix those levees, there weren't going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more important construction job for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ!

 

On Day 3, when you finally left your vacation home, I have to say I was moved by how you had your Air Force One pilot descend from the clouds as you flew over New Orleans so you could catch a quick look of the disaster. Hey, I know you couldn't stop and grab a bullhorn and stand on some rubble and act like a commander in chief. Been there done that.

 

There will be those who will try to politicize this tragedy and try to use it against you. Just have your people keep pointing that out. Respond to nothing. Even those pesky scientists who predicted this would happen because the water in the Gulf of Mexico is getting hotter and hotter making a storm like this inevitable. Ignore them and all their global warming Chicken Littles. There is nothing unusual about a hurricane that was so wide it would be like having one F-4 tornado that stretched from New York to Cleveland.

 

No, Mr. Bush, you just stay the course. It's not your fault that 30 percent of New Orleans lives in poverty or that tens of thousands had no transportation to get out of town. C'mon, they're black! I mean, it's not like this happened to Kennebunkport. Can you imagine leaving white people on their roofs for five days? Don't make me laugh! Race has nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with this!

 

You hang in there, Mr. Bush. Just try to find a few of our Army helicopters and send them there. Pretend the people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast are near Tikrit.

 

Yours,

 

Michael Moore

 

 

That said, I don't think it was intentional - I think it was honest-to-God cluelessness and Bush being his usual aloof self. The vacation in  Crawford for the month of August has certainly affected this country in a major way on TWO occasions now, which also shows that the current administration didn't learn their lesson the first time around.

Loss...

 

Ever think that Bush's August vacation MIGHT be because Congress is in recess right now?

 

Funny how the government calendar works out each year.

Michael Moore is just as much a tool as the rest of the media. Ever since Farenheit 9/11 failed to change this countries history the guy pretty much disappeared from the public eye. And shockingly he now returns to jump on the Bush-bashing bandwagon after he sees that most of the country is actually in agreement. He is just as bad, if not worse than those he singles out.

I don't think Moore ever left the Bush-Bashing Bandwagon. Hell, you could argue he started the thing.

 

And the longer time goes on, the more he gets proved right.

 

By the way, everyone should watch the rerun of tonight's Daily Show. They laid out the timeline of Bush's inaction and commented on how the whole administration is now scrambling to CYA.

Anyone read Viggo Mortensen's open letter to Bush yet?

 

Barbara Bush proves Maher right...

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/2...HNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

 

 

 

 

The Nation -- Finally, we have discovered the roots of George W. Bush's "compassionate conservatism."

 

 

On the heels of the president's "What, me worry?" response to the death, destruction and dislocation that followed upon Hurricane Katrina comes the news of his mother's Labor Day visit with hurricane evacuees at the Astrodome in Houston.

 

Commenting on the facilities that have been set up for the evacuees -- cots crammed side-by-side in a huge stadium where the lights never go out and the sound of sobbing children never completely ceases -- former First Lady Barbara Bush concluded that the poor people of New Orleans had lucked out.

 

"Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this, this is working very well for them," Mrs. Bush told American Public Media's "Marketplace" program, before returning to her multi-million dollar Houston home.

 

On the tape of the interview, Mrs. Bush chuckles audibly as she observes just how great things are going for families that are separated from loved ones, people who have been forced to abandon their homes and the only community where they have ever lived, and parents who are explaining to children that their pets, their toys and in some cases their friends may be lost forever. Perhaps the former first lady was amusing herself with the notion that evacuees without bread could eat cake.

 

At the very least, she was expressing a measure of empathy commensurate with that evidenced by her son during his fly-ins for disaster-zone photo opportunities.

 

On Friday, when even Republican lawmakers were giving the federal government an "F" for its response to the crisis, President Bush heaped praise on embattled Federal Emergency Management Agency chief Michael Brown. As thousands of victims of the hurricane continued to plead for food, water, shelter, medical care and a way out of the nightmare to which federal neglect had consigned them, Brown cheerily announced that "people are getting the help they need."

 

Barbara Bush's son put his arm around the addled FEMA functionary and declared, "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job."

 

 

So what if they lost everything they had? They didn't have much to begin with, they should be grateful they had to stay in a leaking stadium that turned into a pit of squalor. Jesus Christ, what the fuck is going on in this bitch's head?

 

 

...

This is why I can't stand discussing current events nowadays; EVERYTHING is Bush's fault. No one bothers to actually think things over, they just immediately blame the President and it becomes YET ANOTHER edition of Left vs. Right Scream Wars.

 

I mean, I'm not a huge fan of the guy myself, but how's about we blame the people that actually fucked up and fucked up at the worst time, namely the Mayor of New Orleans for saying he was issuing a manditory evacuation but not, you know, actually making sure everyone was out of the city and then not working with the state government (whose govenor also fucked up) to figure out how to help people that were stuck in New Orleans. I mean, when they herded people into the Superdome, the news reports said that the people were told to bring THEIR OWN FOOD and that the only food there was for the National Guard troops! They should have stocked that place with at least a WEEK'S worth of food and water, but they didn't.

 

During a disaster, it is the STATE and LOCAL government's job to hold the fort until Federal aid can get organized. If anything, the Feds bailed their ass out with that huge convoy of buses and food and troops that came into the city and cities like Houston bailed them out by opening shelters in their arenas.

 

The MAYOR let his city fall into anarchy, not Bush.

 

The GOVENOR didn't send National Guard troops to New Orleans when it was needed, not Bush.

 

This was a monster storm and they KNEW the surge would be higher than the levees could take, but they fucked it up.

From the second link in my sig:

 

 

Saturday, August 27

 

5AM — KATRINA UPGRADED TO CATEGORY 3 HURRICANE [CNN]

 

GOV. BLANCO ASKS BUSH TO DECLARE FEDERAL STATE OF EMERGENCY IN LOUISIANA: “I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster.” [Office of the Governor]

 

FEDERAL EMERGENCY DECLARED, DHS AND FEMA GIVEN FULL AUTHORITY TO RESPOND TO KATRINA: “Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency.” [White House]

 

 

At that point, it was no longer a state/local issue.

 

 

It's funny how fast Bush defenders went from "now's not the time to point fingers" to "NA NA, IT'S THE LOCAL'S FAULT".

If I had a massive natural disaster heading my way that is going to decimate my home and kill my family, I'd probably head for shelter rather than try empty my cupboards of canned goods first. Maybe that's just me being irresponsible though.

 

As for that convoy of buses... were there not approximately 140 buses NOT used to evacuate people?

It's funny how fast Bush defenders went from "now's not the time to point fingers" to "NA NA, IT'S THE LOCAL'S FAULT".

No, it's funny how that was said more than a few times in some of the threads here and yet you continued ramming your argument home and persisted to the point where you were basically goading or baiting for the very response that you're bitching about.

 

If I had a massive natural disaster heading my way that is going to decimate my home and kill my family, I'd probably head for shelter rather than try empty my cupboards of canned goods first.

I agree and I think that was KingPK's point; it was a little unrealistic to expect everybody to load up with a week's worth of food in a backpack and hike on out to the Superdome.