So me presenting my case is "goading". I'll remember that next time. All I've been doing is asking the Bush defenders to come up with some reasoning beyond the talking points that are all over the conservative radio shows and blogs.

 

 

I agree and I think that was KingPK's point; it was a little unrealistic to expect everybody to load up with a week's worth of food in a backpack and hike on out to the Superdome.

 

 

I'm sure they were expecting a quick response like what the people in Florida saw for Charley last summer. FEMA had everything ready to roll before the storm even hit, so the Superdome people I'm sure weren't expecting to spend nearly a week in a giant latrine pit.

 

Then again, blaming the local gov wouldn't have been an option in Florida. Guess it's the people in LA's fault for not electing a Bush family member to be Governor. That seems to be the way to ensure quick response to a disaster.

So me presenting my case is "goading". I'll remember that next time.

Spare me. It was reiterated more than a few times in the other thread and you basically said that you really didn't care and that you were going to continue anyway. If you weren't inviting an escalated response, then you were just filling up space on a message board for no reason? Give me a fucking break.

 

You've said repeatedly that it is a concern who the blame is on, but that's not what you really mean because, if you really felt that way, you would have actually put forth a response to some of the other points mentioned detailing FEMA's incompetence in this issue, rather than firing away with a bunch of conspiratorial bullshit. No, the only thing that matters is that it's Bush's fault, Bush's fault, Bush's fault, and the fact that the Democratic governor pissed away opportunity after opportunity to make pre-emptive repairs to the levees, or the fact that the local government left school busses sitting in a parking lot while they were herding people into the Superdome like cattle are completely irrelevant.

 

In closing, I'd just like to let it be known that this whole line of discussion - this thread and the New Orleans thread - are exactly why we don't have a current events thread here. Despite all attempts to keep discussions civil, some people (not just you) seem completely incapable of participating in a political discussion without charging every single word they write with a partisan spin and implying that holders of any opposing viewpoint are indefensible morons for daring to not hold your political affiliation. Maybe it's just the nature of political discussion but, nevertheless, it's not an attitude that we're going to enable here.

 

Unless there's a real pressing point regarding NMB's policy on current events or something personal directed at me, consider my role in this "discussion" finished.

 

Spare me. It was reiterated more than a few times in the other thread and you basically said that you really didn't care and that you were going to continue anyway. If you weren't inviting an escalated response, then you were just filling up space on a message board for no reason? Give me a fucking break.

 

 

I was trying to initiate discussion on a discussion board. I was trying to get the people with opposing view points to move beyond the offical talking points. If we aren't allowed to do that, what's the fucking point?

 

 

You've said repeatedly that it is a concern who the blame is on, but that's not what you really mean because, if you really felt that way, you would have actually put forth a response to some of the other points mentioned detailing FEMA's incompetence in this issue, rather than firing away with a bunch of conspiratorial bullshit. No, the only thing that matters is that it's Bush's fault, Bush's fault, Bush's fault, and the fact that the Democratic governor pissed away opportunity after opportunity to make pre-emptive repairs to the levees, or the fact that the local government left school busses sitting in a parking lot while they were herding people into the Superdome like cattle are completely irrelevant.

 

 

FEMA had such a poor response because George Bush appoints people to positions of importance with no fucking qualifications for the job. There's no conspiratiorial bullshit involved, he's a fucking horrible president who's done harm to this country.

 

How can any Governor have the ability to repair their state's infrastructure when all the money budgeted for the project got diverted away to tax cuts and Iraq? These projects are funded with federal dollars that aren't available anymore because George Bush looted the Treasury.

 

 

In closing, I'd just like to let it be known that this whole line of discussion - this thread and the New Orleans thread - are exactly why we don't have a current events thread here. Despite all attempts to keep discussions civil, some people (not just you) seem completely incapable of participating in a political discussion without charging every single word they write with a partisan spin and implying that holders of any opposing viewpoint are indefensible morons for daring to not hold your political affiliation. Maybe it's just the nature of political discussion but, nevertheless, it's not an attitude that we're going to enable here.

 

 

In this case, holders of opposing viewpoints ARE indefensible morons because there's doucmentation proving without a shadow of a doubt that while the Governor was requesting aid, George Bush was busy eating cake, fundraising, and declaring disasters in the wrong parishes. This is not political spin, it's fucking documented fact. If there's not place for that in a discussion then again I ask what's the fucking point?

 

 

 

Unless there's a real pressing point regarding NMB's policy on current events or something personal directed at me, consider my role in this "discussion" finished.

 

So basically you're taking the usual conservative approach when confronted with fact, quit the discussion and act like you're taking the high road.

 

Look MiB, we're all adults here. We don't need to be told what's acceptable discussion and what isn't. We don't need to be told what we're saying is "bullshit" despite the fact that almost everything I posted is backed up by offical documents on the White House and Louisiana state web sites.

 

If being confonted with the fact that we have a dangerously incompetent administration causes you to lash out at the messenger, well that's something you're going to have to square with yourself.

So basically you're taking the usual conservative approach when confronted with fact, quit the discussion and act like you're taking the high road.

See, you're doing it right there. Right there.

 

I never even said I was a conservative. Hell, I went to extreme lengths not to mention or address political affiliation in any of my posts. (Last political test I took said I was a moderate with *gasps* leanings to the left, believe it or not.)

 

Look, it's not your opinion that's the problem here - you're entitled to it and, even though I don't necessarily agree with it, you've certainly got a right to discuss it here.

 

But the way you go about bringing your argument is completely void of tact. There's countless jabs and smarmy references to "Bush apologists" in each post; you're not inviting people with opposing view points to move beyond the official talking points, you're pre-emptively deriding their points before their even made and then following that up with condescension upon rebuttal. It comes across as though you're immediately deflecting opposing view points because they're not "liberal", rather than rebutting them because they're not correct and that is where I have a problem.

 

Furthermore, the "conspiratorial bullshit" that I mentioned wasn't that Bush should be called on the carpet for appointing Michael Brown - in fact, that's the best point you've made in the thread and one that I actually agree with.

 

No, it's the claims regarding Bush's "personal values" in the relief efforts - the point that Bush simply neglected to send aid because there were a bunch of black people in New Orleans is conjecture and pure speculation (speculation being the kindest word I can think of) that is inexplicably touted as fact. I don't care how insane Barbara Bush's ramblings are - until I see some documents or hear some confessions, I'm withholding reasonable doubt before I jump into those deep, dark waters.

 

How can any Governor have the ability to repair their state's infrastructure when all the money budgeted for the project got diverted away to tax cuts and Iraq? These projects are funded with federal dollars that aren't available anymore because George Bush looted the Treasury.

Did you read the article linked in that quote? There were federal matching dollars available, as well as local money that could have been assigned to addressing this issue.

 

In the end, I'm not asking you to drop all political discussion or anything crazy like that. I'd just ask that you try to be more mindful in how you're bringing your arguments forward. I know that it's easy to be passionate in topics like these, especially in this particular case where so many people are affected. Just be mindful of the other people in the discussion, that's all.

Sek, try reading that article...

 

The levee boards in Louisiana had TWO BILLION in funds available and only spent TWO MILLION of that on the levees.

 

The rest was blown on luxury benefits like a private plane, investing in a golf course, and the restoration of a fountain on the levee.

 

 

Some of these levee board guys were already under Federal investigation or indictment BEFORE Katrina, and they'll be lucky if that's the least that happens.

 

You don't want to hear some of the suggestions for what should happen to the Governor in *MY* neck of the woods since we already knew she was a fucking moron.

In closing, I'd just like to let it be known that this whole line of discussion - this thread and the New Orleans thread - are exactly why we don't have a current events thread here.  Despite all attempts to keep discussions civil, some people (not just you) seem completely incapable of participating in a political discussion without charging every single word they write with a partisan spin and implying that holders of any opposing viewpoint are indefensible morons for daring to not hold your political affiliation.  Maybe it's just the nature of political discussion but, nevertheless, it's not an attitude that we're going to enable here.

 

Unless there's a real pressing point regarding NMB's policy on current events or something personal directed at me, consider my role in this "discussion" finished.

Me and MiB, even when we were running boards together, hardly saw eye-to-eye much but that is one thing we learned from other places that we detested and decided would not be a part of anything we created. I hated the Flaming folder at WDI and absolutely LOATHED the Current Events folder at TSM. I figure that's kinda ironic considering I was supposedly such a confrontational figure back in those days. I guess that can also be a bit of SNKT TRIVIA~! "CJ doesn't like flame wars or political/religious debate."

That post was beautiful MiB. Nice work.

 

Teke, who do you think will be hung the highest by the neck after this mess settles down?

That post was beautiful MiB.  Nice work.

 

Teke, who do you think will be hung the highest by the neck after this mess settles down?

In my betting pool, I'd say Blanco first because Nagin was at least partially hamstrung by her, so he's not 100% culpable for what happened in New Orleans.

 

 

The head of FEMA is probably next on the list, though, as he isn't winning friends and influencing people either.

 

 

The reason I'm not putting the Levee Board members higher is that I'm pretty sure that the big levee breach was due to a barge smashing into it, not due to poor maintenance or insufficient work.

No, it's the claims regarding Bush's "personal values" in the relief efforts - the point that Bush simply neglected to send aid because there were a bunch of black people in New Orleans is conjecture and pure speculation (speculation being the kindest word I can think of) that is inexplicably touted as fact. I don't care how insane Barbara Bush's ramblings are - until I see some documents or hear some confessions, I'm withholding reasonable doubt before I jump into those deep, dark waters.

I believe the expression we are looking for is "The leaf doesn't fall far from the tree" or some shit.

"CJ doesn't like flame wars or political/religious debate."

Shut up, I'm on to you Crossoflex.

Bush shouldnt be soley blamed. He still fucked up. But its not totally his fault. America shold be calling for the heads of ALL the political figures who were in control of the area be it the top of the chain or the bottom. Every motherfucker dropped the ball and thousands of people have suffered physical and emotional scars because if it. People were killed and raped, homes and businesses were destroyed and two states wont be the same for years and theres a whole rack of people who coudlve did something about it.

 

 

 

Is Bush really even in charge, Isnt he more like americas goofy-ass mascot? Doesnt he remind you a lil of Capn Crunch or Frankenberry?

Bush's sin seems to be limited to hiring an idiot to run FEMA...

 

However, that idiot still did a better job than Blanco for sure.

 

 

I'm reserving judgement on Nagin for the moment, as I think he acted poorly, but was hurt worse by Blanco being uncooperative with him, the Feds, and independant organizations like the Red Cross and Salvation Army.

You know, I just reread 17 fucking pages of New Orleans and Bush and I was trying to come to grips with this argument that sek was just Bush-baiting. The fact is that he oulined SEVERAL instances where the federal govt. was to blame and not one person challenged it directly. They just said he was hating on Bush. I hate Bush too. Probably the only President in the history of our country (besides Andrew jackson) who's grave I will be tempted to piss on. With that said, I can definitely see where people would get fed up with sek's posts but the fact is that when he has documented specific points outlining the ineptness at the federal level, no one had a specific response. MIB even had to allow the "venom" to continue when it was clear that sek wasn't jsut talking out of his ass.

 

Do I think Bush hates black people? No. Do I think that he has absolutely no interest in the welfare of the black community of New Orleans or the impoverished of this country? Absolutely.

 

MIB, there is a reason that he is the most polarizing President in this country... he is a divider, not a uniter except for one bleak moment when 4 planes crashed in 2001.

 

I said earlier in the other thread that I did not expect teke or any Republican to admit that Bush was at fault and so far, they have proven me right. It goes down to partisan politics on BOTH sides. Us Leftys feel one way (blame the feds) and the Right wing goes the opposite route (blame the locals). The only ones who haven't done either are the ones who sit on the fence without a public opinion. Maybe it is time we just let this particular issue set until the waters drain and the smoke settles. If you want to respond and then close it, feel free. If not, I'll close it when I wake up tomorrow.

Ive actually talked to a few Republicans who have stated that Frankenber....er, President Bush really let them down. They were angry and dissapointed that a man and a party they supported screwed up royaly. (These are their words, not mine) Not only has their party and their beliefs been made to look foolish but so have they.Jus saying.

I have yet to see it on this or countless other boards.

Huh?!

 

I was talking about In Real Life, not online.

The fact is that he oulined SEVERAL instances where the federal govt. was to blame and not one person challenged it directly.

http://s3.invisionfree.com/New_Millennium_...dpost&p=3306628

http://s3.invisionfree.com/New_Millennium_...dpost&p=3323335

http://s3.invisionfree.com/New_Millennium_...dpost&p=3326422

http://s3.invisionfree.com/New_Millennium_...dpost&p=3326585

http://s3.invisionfree.com/New_Millennium_...dpost&p=3327127

http://s3.invisionfree.com/New_Millennium_...dpost&p=3327425

http://s3.invisionfree.com/New_Millennium_...dpost&p=3365116

http://s3.invisionfree.com/New_Millennium_...dpost&p=3365791

http://s3.invisionfree.com/New_Millennium_...dpost&p=3366276

http://s3.invisionfree.com/New_Millennium_...dpost&p=3340519

http://s3.invisionfree.com/New_Millennium_...dpost&p=3340727

 

As far as blame goes, I think a good share goes onto FEMA, a good share goes onto the local government, and a fair (but not disproportionate) share goes to Bush for appointing Brown and for the classless move of attending the fundraisers while all of this was going on. One of Ronald Reagan's classic sayings was "trust, but verify" and I think Bush did a little too much of the former, and not enough of the latter, in the case of Michael Brown.

You know, I just reread 17 fucking pages of New Orleans and Bush and I was trying to come to grips with this argument that sek was just Bush-baiting. The fact is that he oulined SEVERAL instances where the federal govt. was to blame and not one person challenged it directly. They just said he was hating on Bush. I hate Bush too. Probably the only President in the history of our country (besides Andrew jackson) who's grave I will be tempted to piss on. With that said, I can definitely see where people would get fed up with sek's posts but the fact is that when he has documented specific points outlining the ineptness at the federal level, no one had a specific response. MIB even had to allow the "venom" to continue when it was clear that sek wasn't jsut talking out of his ass.

 

Do I think Bush hates black people? No. Do I think that he has absolutely no interest in the welfare of the black community of New Orleans or the impoverished of this country? Absolutely.

 

MIB, there is a reason that he is the most polarizing President in this country... he is a divider, not a uniter except for one bleak moment when 4 planes crashed in 2001.

 

I said earlier in the other thread that I did not expect teke or any Republican to admit that Bush was at fault and so far, they have proven me right. It goes down to partisan politics on BOTH sides. Us Leftys feel one way (blame the feds) and the Right wing goes the opposite route (blame the locals). The only ones who haven't done either are the ones who sit on the fence without a public opinion. Maybe it is time we just let this particular issue set until the waters drain and the smoke settles. If you want to respond and then close it, feel free. If not, I'll close it when I wake up tomorrow.

Helmet,

 

 

You're misidentifying my position...

 

I'm not actively SUPPORTING Bush's response as much as trying to correct people's rhetoric that claims that the bungled parts of the relief effort are totally the fault of the Federal Government.

 

I work for this banana republic of a state and know first-hand what kind of idiots we have down here running things, as well as how some of them were fucking up the response through actions or lack thereof, that prevented the Feds from doing their job.

 

 

If Blanco had gotten her head out of her ass earlier, they could have ceded power to the Feds as needed OR found someone within her administration that could keep up with the crisis as it happened rather than waiting 24 hours to make a decision on certain problems.

 

As it stands, though, a LOT of time was wasted trying to work THROUGH that idiot instead of circumventing her.

 

That does not absolve the Federal Government of blame, but it certainly explains why they're not doing some things that appear to be common sense reactions.

Ok, my feeling was that you were placing it ALL on the local and state instead while stating that Bush's only fault was hiring the FEMA guy. As I have stated more than once, blame can be placed at all levels... including the President.

 

MIB...

I am not reading this shit again. I have to go to school where i now have to teach some of the "refugees" and have no desire to refute anything anymore.

I had the misfortune of being stuck in a room with two closed-minded Republicans last night during the game and both seemed to believe that everyone in NO should've left when it was advised to do so. Them both coming from plush backgrounds clearly left them blind to the fact that most of the people who stayed, had no other choice.

 

While I'm at it, I should mention the one has to be one of the most closed-minded, racist, sexist, digusting people I've been associated with. He's completely against the idea of any woman being president because they're all "irrational." Hey, "bitches be trippin'" is my mantra, but even I can see that a lot of women would be better suited for the job than who we have now. He also said he's conservative because he doesn't need to give away his money. I asked what money he was talking, since he has no job and his parents are the rich ones. Needless to say, the attention quickly went back to the game.