An issue has been raised about the DVDVR 80s project. On the one hand, it is a noble gesture to expose so many matches to different people for practically peanuts. On the other hand, I agree with Frank Jewett that the system is flawed if the goal is to get a TRUE concensus of what the greatest matches are from the era. Many great matches were omitted and deserve at least a look. What really made this flaw stand out is when Loss mentioned that Piper-Orndorff could be a Top 5 match for him but it wasn't even nominated.

 

Anyway, for those taking part in the project and either have a set or are going to get a set of the DVDVR DVDs, I am going to copy and distribute Frank's addendum of discs. It may be one or two extra discs.. maybe more. I don't know if the DVDVR system will be altered or allow the inclusion of other matches but it would be a shame if you thought a great match should be recognized and it wasn't even allowed to be entertained. Maybe, if Frank's discs are allowed to be considered, we can get closer to the actual goal of examining what the best matches were.

 

So, if you are participating, let me know. If I am in a current trade with you, I'll just send you the discs if they are available when I send back your trade. If you want the discs but do not want to be bothered with a separate trade, help me cover shipping and discs and I'll send them along.

I'm in for this. But Jewett should get down off his high horse and participate in the damn project if he wants to have an opinion on it.

Well, in his defense, and to be honest, I have never talked to him at lengths, but from what I have read, I think he is right about the errors of the "system" in place. Also knowing the animosity Bix has for him (maybe or maybe not rightfully so), I don't see him putting aside differences for the good of the project which would make it difficult for Frank to be an active participant at DVDVR.

 

As an aside, Mort, I'll send you the discs along with what you want in return for sending Tim the British comdey discs you were going to send him. Tim or I can PM you his address and I can send you whatever you request at the current time.

There's not a lot to it really. I don't post anywhere at DVDVR other than the 80s Project section, and if all he wants to do is suggest other matches that he thinks should be nominated then I can't see what the problem is.

Well, what would be the point in posting when, more often than not, what I have been seeing lately is not a criticism of Frank's thoughts on wrestling but Frank himself. Ultimately, this comes down to something Dan Ginnetty said. Now, Dan is viewed by Bix as "his main man" and is also thought highly of by Frank. These were his thoughts pertaining to the Japan portion but could easily be applied to the WWF portion as well.

 

"I would hold off on doing All Japan and New Japan until the end. There seem to be a lot of matches popping up now being "rediscovered". In 12 months there will be even more.

:

: John"

You rang? ;-)

 

Is something happening in 12 months I should know about?

 

I do know this:

 

Lynch stopped getting NJ classics when they were covering footage from 5/25/89.

I only know of one source that started recording NJ Classics with footage from 11/29/89. That leaves a gap of 6 months, and about 20 episodes. Sky-A channel in Japan is now airing NJ Classics shows (90 min version)that have footage from early 1989. It is possible that they might cover the "missing" matches that aired on Samurai from 5-11/89. I am hoping very much that they air the complete Liger-Sano from 9/20/89. Believe it or not, NJ Classics on Samurai never aired that match!

 

 

Once those shows air, I think we will have seen the end of old NJ footage creeping up on satellite TV from the 80s. With that book closed, we are left with tracking down the complete TV shows from the 80s.

 

There are folks out there who are way closer to that than you might think.

:-)

 

There were very few comm tapes released with 80s footage, either from NJ or AJ. Regardless, those have been tracked down.

 

The missing piece to the puzzle is handheld footage. I would not let that stop the project from starting, since it is my belief that new handhelds will always be popping up somewhere.

 

So yeah, I would hold off on even addressing Japan stuff, until all available footage can be accessed.

If someone wanted to do a definitive study of the puro scene in the 80s, one would think that they would be better off waiting to get all the footage first.

 

Admittedly, it is MUCH easier to watch every single japan show than it would be to watch every single WWE broadcast from the 80s.

 

BTW, there is a decent chance (may be upgraded to definite possibility later this week) that all the joshi TV shows from the 80s are available.

 

That would make for a fun project as well!

 

Samurai TV's website claims to own the AJW video library and is archiving it all in preparation to restart AJW Classics in chronological order. Time will tell on that.

 

So my vote on the Japan project would be to wait until it can be done PROPERLY.

 

It would be a waste of time, IMO, to watch a bunch of AJ or NJ Classics tapes, then start rating the best matches with only a fraction of the available footage viewed.

 

Dan Ginnetty

"Do it right the first time"

The bold parts are what I thought were important to the argument. In most cases, sub the word Japan or the Japanese organization with WWF and the same meaning applies.

I missed the deadline for the DVDs, but I'm interested in picking up the original discs AND the addendum. Not immediately, but very soon hopefully.

 

The system *is* flawed at DVDVR, but the good outweighs the bad, and Frank openly criticizing a goodwill project makes him appear to be an asshole, whether that's the case or not. The one thing I'd do differently is put every nominated match on the set and then ask people to rank their top 20 or 30 or even 50. No need to rank every single match, but keep in mind that nothing like this has ever been done before and no one else has had the wherewithal or courage to put it out there and actually do it. The first time something like this is run, of course there's going to be a learning curve.

I don't even know the people involved, but its stuff like this that makes people not want to do things like DVDVR's project.

 

There's no way that the first attempt at something like that would go on without a flaw, there's no need to be a dick about it when it happens.

 

On the plus side, we can observe what goes right and wrong with their project and use it to help Loss's project go even smoother.

I don't think Frank was being an asshole about it to be honest. I think the fact that he and Bix are at odds made people who despise the toa crowd side with Bix and automatically scream asshole. I made a similar comment at the old DVDVR board and was promptly shunted as well... and this was well before I read the comments at tOA. Plus, if the TRUE goal is to find out what are the best matches then why shun someone who can help you with more material to evaluate?

Did you see what he wrote at tOA? It's not the point that he was making that made him an asshole, it's the way he went about making said point. Check out the Terra Nova expedition post over there. If he was only wanting to make a point, why not just make the point? No need to start name calling and picking on people. THAT is what caused the resentment.

Um not quite... did you read the last 50 posts Bix has made at OLC?

Yes. That happened *after* Frank started the whole mess. Bix overreacted, but Frank was being an asshole.

I just re-read the entire thing.

 

I don't think Frank was being an asshole. I think he was being himself. After reading tOA for a couple of years now, the tone hasn't changed. Now is the time to get offended? The fact of the matter is that despite the tone, Frank and whoever else pointed out the flaws of the project at hand, offered to help distribute other matches that needed to be seen and have, so far, been shit on. He has also helped to volunteer his services and no response.

 

Even then, over-reacted isn't quite it.... carrying a vendetta is more like it. And speaking from experience, it really has nothing to do with the project at hand. I could be called an asshole and I would not argue with you... but I would also not let petty differences get in the way of what's best for the project. For instance, at DVDVR, Bix called Tim cooke an ignorant fool who has no business judging wrestling (or something to that effect). Now, for those of us who have communicated, talked, or received wrestling recommended by Tim, this could not be the furthest thing from the truth. Maybe people think Tim is an asshole. So be it. The fact is I responded, defended Tim and insulted Bix.

 

When it came to dupe, I offered my services ... no response. I offered to dub, help contribute with some of the Coliseum videos I have received from Bruiser, etc. and distribute. Once again, no response. If you were really thinking of the project at hand, wouldn't you do what is best for the actual project? The reality is that maybe Frank would not come off as such an asshole if the project wasn't being ran by someone with an axe to grind. So, when Frank threw out the offer to have someone help distribute his discs, I jumped at the chance, only mentioning Tim and Dan Ginnetty as references and I should have the discs sometime this week. Doesn't sound like some asshole who wants to rain on the DVDVR parade.

 

Then you have the logistics that have been, to quote Bob Barnett " a clusterfuck" which is why Barnett bailed out, guys in Canada waiting well over a month to receive their discs, Bix being "sick" and postponing things for two weeks, etc. If you are going to be flexible with the distribution then you should def. be flexible in the ground rules you lay out. Once I get all of the discs from Tim, I'll probably get a replacement disc 6 from Bob, make about ten-twenty copies and look for people who were bailed on or late to the party and see if I can help them out. However, before offering these services, it would probably be wise for me to actually have my shit together before making promises that I cannot keep.

I don't want to get into the middle of this mess.

 

For a large scale, first time project, I think it is being done very well. Matches were left off, no big deal. Seek them out and re-do your list after th evoting is over. The 90's lists at DVDVR are fairly useless so I don't see these list being the end all. What I do see is finding awesome matches that you would have never watched prior.

 

The people bugging me are those whining about waiting so long for discs. If you donate a decent amount of money, you get them faster. The less you donate, the more time you wait. If you don't donate, it shouldn't matter how long you wait as long as you get them with enough time to vote.

 

So I take no side.

To be fair, I don't think they are whining because they donated less. I just think that the people got stuck with a slow/bad distributor.

 

As for the project, you are friends with Phil. Do you think he would be willing to include the Frank Addendum? I would hate to go through the trouble of distributing them and then have the ballots "DQed" because they aren't part of the set 100.

OK, here is the deal...

 

Frank e-mailed me and I should have the set next week via Bob Barnett.

 

I talked to Phil and he said that the matches will not be allowed on the ballots so do not put them on your DVDVR ballots if you get the discs. However, I do think they are worth distributing so you get an even bigger picture of worthy matches that existed in the 80s. If you have the ability to distribute and make copies of the DVDs, let me know and I'll make sure you get a set.

I'll happily distribute the discs to people in the UK. Let me know the listings for them and I'll put the word out.

 

Re: the thing about waiting for more footage from Japan, we'll be here til the end of time if we're waiting for that. UWF has tons of stuff barely anyone can have seen, so I don't see how doing that firstis going to be a better idea.

Ok, the idea to hold off on Japan was Dan Ginnetty's idea. I talked to him about a month ago and he said he just dound some hidden TV shows. I guess he told Bix also so Bix postponed it to get ahold of the hidden footage.

 

As for the Mid South/UWF, I contacted Bix to offer the house shows and any UWF I transferred from Dan in exchange for future sets. In turn, I could dupe for anyone here who wanted a set. I still haven't heard from Bix about it. I may have to contact one of the duplicators and make a deal with them in order to get a response.

Bix seems to just flat-out ignore people. I lost count of the amount of times I said "I'll donate as much UWF and AJW footage in perfect quality as you need" and never got the slightest response. I guess I'm not at his level or something.

 

Re: the Japan stuff...Dan finds it, eventually transfers it to DVD and then sends it to Bix. How long before this filters through enough people for them to start nominating matches? Then what happens if more hidden shows are unearthed? There has to come a time when you draw a line and say "we go from here" because this will never end. It's a bad idea to delay on the say-so of one person, even if it is Dan Ginnetty.

Bix seems to just flat-out ignore people. I lost count of the amount of times I said "I'll donate as much UWF and AJW footage in perfect quality as you need" and never got the slightest response. I guess I'm not at his level or something.

I must be one level above you because I got one response

 

You can always "donate" your collection to me

 

Re: the Japan stuff...Dan finds it, eventually transfers it to DVD and then sends it to Bix. How long before this filters through enough people for them to start nominating matches? Then what happens if more hidden shows are unearthed? There has to come a time when you draw a line and say "we go from here" because this will never end. It's a bad idea to delay on the say-so of one person, even if it is Dan Ginnetty.

Dan and I transfer it to DVD

 

Either way, since it seems each category is going to take 4 months plus, I think waiting for the footage is worth it. Still, this goes back to my original point that all matches should be considered, not just the set 100. I think Tim had the best idea... just play nice and have an "official ballot" and the "unofficial ballot which would actually be more official"... if that makes sense.

I believe this is the final matchlisting. Frank has his thoughts on each match at tOA.

 

From 1980...

Ken Patera vs Pat Patterson - 04/21/1980 (full-length)

Bob Backlund vs Ken Patera - 05/19/1980

Bob Backlund vs Larry Zbyszko - 10/11/1980

Ken Patera vs Pedro Morales - 10/20/1980

Ken Patera vs Bruno Sammartino - 11/08/1980

 

*****

 

From 1981...

Bob Backlund vs Don Muraco - 09/21/1981

Bob Backlund vs Don Muraco - 10/17/1981

Bob Backlund vs Greg Valentine - 11/23/1981

 

 

*****

 

From 1982...

Pedro Morales vs Adrian Adonis - 03/14/1982

Pedro Morales vs Jimmy Snuka - 05/22/1982

Bob Backlund vs Bob Orton - 05/22/1982

Bob Backlund vs Jimmy Snuka - 06/28/1982

Portland promo used to intro Rose to WWF

Bob Backlund vs Buddy Rose - 08/30/1982

Pedro Morales vs Buddy Rose - 11/22/1982

This weekend I will have all 8 discs from the DVDVR match listing and the Frank Jewett addendum. Let me know by tomorrow if you want a copy of the set. If I am trading with you, I will include it in your next package. If not, help me out with shipping and discs and we'll call it a day.

Cool. How much would say covers shipping and discs? I'll PayPal it to you.

$5 for shipping and $5 for discs.

 

That is if you want it sent immediately. If you want it sent with your next package in a trade or purchase, don't sweat the shipping. This is if you just want the set with no strings attached when I go to the PO on Monday.

 

EDIT: Whether you want them now or later, still let me know if you want them so I can knock them out of the way.

I'm interested in them now. I'll PayPal you the money later this afternoon.

Ok ,cool. I am going to the post office Monday so you'll have the rest of the set (barring any recording problems) by Wednesday.