With the Chicago White Sox advancing to the ALCS, there will no doubt be some discussion on their most infamous postseason appearance, the 1919 World Series. I am starting this thread to generate some general discussion, and hopefully clear up some of the myths and misinformation surrounding the team.

 

Lately there has been some discussion as to whether or not the Black Sox were really a great team. Bill James wrote several essays on the subject of great teams in the Abstract, and here's a passage on the 1919 White Sox.

 

One team often listed among the greatest ever is the 1919 Chicago White Sox (the Black Sox).  There is no foundation to consider that team among the all-time greats.  The White Sox top score for five-year performance is 12 points, from 1916-1920.  That's nothing.  Their multi-year accomplishments rank them below the Detroit Tigers (1907-1911), the Red Sox (1901-1905), the Tigers of the thirties, the Indians of the fifties, the Baltimore Orioles of 1979-1983, the Kansas City Royals of 1976-1980, the Tigers of 1983-1987, and dozens of other teams that no one suggests we should list among the greatest of all time.

 

Even if we assume that the 1919 Chicago White Sox could have won the World Series, even if we assume that that team could have won the American League in 1920 had eight players not been expelled in Late September, it still isn't enough.  The team just didn't win enough to be considered an all-time great team.

 

If you look at the personnel of the 1919 White Sox, once again they're not very impressive.  Sure, they had some good players; they also had Nemo Leibold, Swede Risberg, and Chick Gandil.  As everyday players.  Their everyday lineup was two superstars (Eddie Collins and Joe Jackson), three pretty good players (Buck Weaver, Ray Schalk and Happy Felsch), and three guys who frankly weren't very good.  That's not a great team.

 

Anything that makes a players or team famous tends to make them over-rated.  The White Sox wind up terribly over-rated, ironically, because they threw the World Series

Let me start by addressing the 1920 season. The eight players weren't just expelled in late September. There were three games left on the schedule. The remaining White Sox finished 1-2, and finished two games behind the Indians. Had the White Sox swept the St. Louis Browns, they would have tied for first place.

 

Now, with all due respect to Bill James' accomplishment system he addresses, it fails the White Sox for several reasons. One, it credits a team for winning the division. In 1919, winning the division meant winning the league. Of course the late-70s Royals will look better when they keep winning the West, regardless that the Yankees beat them every year in the ALCS. Second, the system rewards a team for winning 90 games. The White Sox won 88 games in a 140 game schedule in 1919. If they played 154 games, they would have easily won 90 games. If they played a modern schedule, they could have won 100. A modern schedule and no expulsions would give them 100 wins in 1920, and they DID win 100 games in 1917. Third, the White Sox and the rest of baseball suffered essentially a lost year in 1918, due to World War I. Joe Jackson played just 17 games.

 

From 1915-1920, the Chicago White Sox won 59.4% of their games. In a 162 game schedule, that would work out to 96 wins a season, and 91 wins in a 154 game schedule. The White Sox had three players (Red Faber, Ray Schalk and Eddie Collins) reach the Hall of Fame, and Eddie Cicotte and Joe Jackson were Hall of Fame caliber players. Given the course of the 1919 World Series, they would certainly have won it honestly. And the 1917 club, with the same starting lineup, did win 100 games and the World Series.

 

That said, they did throw the World Series, which makes it hard to garner sympathy points.

I just wanna know why Berman tacked on "allegdly" to his mention of the Black Sox throwing the Series. I wasn't aware that was even debatable at this point.

I just wanna know why Berman tacked on "allegdly" to his mention of the Black Sox throwing the Series.  I wasn't aware that was even debatable at this point.

Perhaps to the same level that one may draw a conspriacy theory about the subject. There is a mountain of both solid and circumstantial evidence that they threw the World Series, and little in the other direction.

 

I would like to make one thing clear. The Black Sox were acquitted in federal court. That case was not only a charge that they threw the World Series, but intentionally played a confidence trick in the process, and other such acts. That they were acquitted is not necessarily a finding by the court that they did not throw the Series.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/1919.shtml

 

There's the stats for the Black Sox.

Al, how would you compare the Black Sox to those other teams from the first half of the decade.

 

If they're really like the 3rd best team in the 1900-1920 period, I'd say they don't deserve as much respect as they get.

Al, how would you compare the Black Sox to those other teams from the first half of the decade.

 

If they're really like the 3rd best team in the 1900-1920 period, I'd say they don't deserve as much respect as they get.

The strongest argument for the White Sox comes from the World Series results. The American League was probably a much stronger league at that time, evidenced by their winning every World Series from 1910-1920 except for 1914 (Miracle Braves) and 1919 (Black Sox). Based on that you can argue for the White Sox above McGraw's Giants, although I am unsure if you could. They would clearly rate behind the '06-'10 Cubs and the '10-'14 Philadelphia Athletics, both of whom won multiple world championships. The Black Sox would probably rate somewhere between third and fifth among dead ball era teams. Besides those Giants, there's also the Red Sox who won four world championships. The only problem with the Red Sox is that I have trouble classifying them. Harry Hooper is the only player to play for both the 1912 and 1918 clubs. The 1918 season was cut short by World War I, and the 1915 season saw the second year of the Federal League as significant competition for players.

 

If you rate teams there are about 24 teams with a clear-cut advantage. After that there are 12-16 more teams with an argument, but serious flaws. The White Sox are in that second group.