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Joe vs. the World is back, and we're here to talk the Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame! I'm joined by newly appointed voter Dylan Hales as we run down the ballot, go over new candidates, and discuss who's on the chopping block. Plus why I'm like Charlie Brown (one of many reasons, anyway), why Akira Taue is like Mick Foley, why lucha voters can't get their act together, and much much much more! An illuminating and entertaining 90 minutes of audio goodness! #voteforcaras

 

 

I can't wait to listen to this, my two favourite podcasters together at last.

What Steven said!!! Pumped.

I think the main weakness of Taue as a candidate is never being positioned in a key position on a major Dome show (which I suppose is akin to Mick Foley never having a really big WrestleMania singles match). Part of that is All Japan/NOAH rarely running such large events, but the fact that New Japan never brought him in at a time when they were looking to outsiders to prop up their business suggests that he was considered a tier below Misawa, Kobashi, Kawada and Akiyama.

 

Re: Akiyama never living up to his potential, I think it could be argued that he was a victim of All Japan's television being consigned to dead end time slots in the middle of the night just as his career was being kickstarted. He was also put in the tough spot of being the ace for a new promotion and that push coming a bit too soon. Nonetheless he became the closest of his generation to live up to the generation that preceded him.

I can't wait to listen to this, my two favourite podcasters together at last.

They did one on developmental about a month ago, too.

Taue is both the 4th best worker and 4th biggest star of the AJPW Core Four. I don't think either position is even up for frivolous, much less serious debate.

 

I get that it's a monstrously unfair handicap to be compared to Misawa, Kawada, and Kobashi. But when I hear somebody is the "fourth best..." of a particular group, I have a really, really hard time envisioning that fourth best something as a HOFer. Especially something more specific like '90s AJPW main eventers.

 

I don't like the "doesn't FEEL like a HOFer" standard either. But that shoe fits for Taue, as far as I can tell.

I don't think you can dismiss Los Brazos so easily. There needs to be some research done into their drawing power, because their act holds up a whole lot better on tape than the Misioneros and they lasted through to the mid 90s.

Taue is both the 4th best worker and 4th biggest star of the AJPW Core Four. I don't think either position is even up for frivolous, much less serious debate.

 

I get that it's a monstrously unfair handicap to be compared to Misawa, Kawada, and Kobashi. But when I hear somebody is the "fourth best..." of a particular group, I have a really, really hard time envisioning that fourth best something as a HOFer. Especially something more specific like '90s AJPW main eventers.

 

I don't like the "doesn't FEEL like a HOFer" standard either. But that shoe fits for Taue, as far as I can tell.

 

I absolutely get that, but like you said 4th best in that class is pretty remarkable. How much did Taue allow the others to build their resumes? I'm not sure there was anyone capable of filling that role over the years without the entire generation's work taking a pretty big hit. I get that he's not Shaq or Kobe, but he's a lot closer to them than he is to Robert Horry. Who also I think one can make a pretty strong HOF case for but that's neither here nor there

I'm excited for the GOAT project mainly because it means I get to put Taue on and leave the other three off.

I take it that's a joke.

Misawa was so dynamic and explosively genuine I might have to sneak him on. Taue wrestled like a complete asshole though. Just full of character. That appealed to me more than the other three. I came out of watching their big tags liking Taue way more than the rest.

Yeah... pretty sure that long term Brazos ended up drawing a lot more than Misioneros. I haven't done any serious research in a decade but as the legend goes the three biggest draws post-86 outside of Mexico city's big arenas where Santo Jr., Brazos and Aguayo. Brazos drew a shitload of money for years in places like Monterrey where we have few results and fewer matches, and others like Guadalajara or Nuevo Laredo where we have almost nothing.

See, nobody's going to know that about the Brazos. There's not enough serious research done about the candidates from outside the US because of the language barrier and the inaccessibility of not only numbers and figures but all sorts of basic information that we take for granted about US candidates. It becomes a matter of hearsay or voting for a candidate because some you trust endorsed them. Guys get voted in like McManus without so much as a single critique of his candidacy while someone like Sting gets put through the ringer. I don't even really think we know that much about Taue aside from the matches he wrestled and what the shows drew.

There is something to that point OJ, but the question becomes - how much research is enough?

I would say the same amount of research that goes into the bios for each inductee. Last year, I read the bios for both Atlantis and Dr. Wagner Sr, which were written by Steve Sims and Jose respectively, and they were both very informative, but that information should be out there prior to induction. I suppose most voters only had a vague notion of who Dr Wagner Sr and Atlantis were and abstained from voting in that section (or whatever the rules are), but generating awareness of candidates seems largely based on individual voters trying to push a guy's case either in the WON or on the internet. I don't really understand why candidates on placed on the ballot without Dave introducing them and explaining why they've been included. They just seem to pop up. Unfortunately, we can't rely on anyone from Japan or Mexico to provide us with a wealth of information because of the language barriers, and even with Europe, John Lister can correct me if I'm wrong, but most British historians don't appear to operate within the WON sphere and are oblivious to the entire thing.

 

I realise Dave is busy and all, but if it were me I'd write to someone and say look I'm putting this guy on the ballot this year can you put together something explaining his case and I'll print it in the WON. Maybe he does do that, but it seems to be guys submitting stuff of their own volition.

If you're good enough to be a nominee, you're good enough to have a comprehensive bio. There's something to that.

Anyway to download this through an RSS reader?

http://www.thecubsfan.com/joe.xml

 

That should work, I think/hope.

 

I can't wait to listen to this, my two favourite podcasters together at last.

They did one on developmental about a month ago, too.

 

Oh yeah, that was great.

 

This one was great too. I great little look at the HOF. The argument for Taue was very convincing.

Listening now & had a question that wasn't addressed either here or on Bix's appearance on VOW. Is Cien Caras a stronger candidate as himself than in the Dinamitas? Or even if so, are the Dinamitas worth considering as a trio, given that if Caras goes in on his own the trio can't go in.

Cien is a better case on his own than part of his brothers. The brothers life as a team was shorter than other families in lucha like Brazos & Villanos and Cien/MA2K were more known for their solo stuff than Universo

This was good stuff guys. In regards to Brock I don't think he's HOF worthy. In regards to his UFC pedigree to me is akin to Angle 's gold medal in helping his candidacy . Neither should have any bearing. Though I don't think that's case.