The best big men are the ones who do the high-flying athletic shit. When those moves land, it looks absolutely devastating, which adds to their monster aura. It also looks devastating when they miss, which is perfect for setting up the babyface comeback.

I just thought it was an interesting take. If a 450lb guy can do all the same things as the 200lb guy, why do you care about the 200lb guy?

 

Obviously it's never that black-and-white and a lot more goes into it than just that, like characters, opponents & what not. It was just something I didn't really expect to hear from a worker as I figured most people would like Big Van Vader.

 

I guess everyone has haters though. Especially in this ego driven business full of people scared of losing their spots and being jealous of others.

There actually seem to be a lot of Vader detractors among former wrestlers.

For what it's worth, Vader deadlifting Takada into a powerbomb in UWFi didn't look cooperative at all. It was awesome

For what it's worth, Vader deadlifting Takada into a powerbomb in UWFi didn't look cooperative at all. It was awesome

That's true.

 

I love Vader and he'll be one of the highest ranking Americans on my list but it's not shoot style making that case for me.

I think it's worth mentioning that Vader's WWF run is not quite the dead zone that people make it out to be, and he was actually surprisingly consistent there, with his 97 in particular being strong. To illustrate this, I've been watching all the In Your Houses in order recently, and through the end of 1997 I had Vader in 7 3 star+ matches. Compare that to Shawn, where this period from 95-first retirement makes up a large part of his GOAT candidacy, who I have in 8 3 star+ matches. Obviously Shawn has more high end stuff (not to mention that this only covers the In Your Houses, a small sampling of matches from the time period), but I still think it says a lot about how the reality of Vader's WWF run differs from the perception, given how close he gets to someone who is widely regarded as the best the company had in that era.

 

I don't think Vader's WWF run is adding much to his candidacy, but it's not the strike against him that some may have it as either.

I think it's worth mentioning that Vader's WWF run is not quite the dead zone that people make it out to be, and he was actually surprisingly consistent there, with his 97 in particular being strong. To illustrate this, I've been watching all the In Your Houses in order recently, and through the end of 1997 I had Vader in 7 3 star+ matches. Compare that to Shawn, where this period from 95-first retirement makes up a large part of his GOAT candidacy, who I have in 8 3 star+ matches. Obviously Shawn has more high end stuff (not to mention that this only covers the In Your Houses, a small sampling of matches from the time period), but I still think it says a lot about how the reality of Vader's WWF run differs from the perception, given how close he gets to someone who is widely regarded as the best the company had in that era.

 

I don't think Vader's WWF run is adding much to his candidacy, but it's not the strike against him that some may have it as either.

That Final Four match is epic and I love it. For a match with Bret, Austin, Vader & Taker it is a strong point in his favour that he is the star of that match.

Bless YouTube. Been bouncing around the past few days on that gimmick and watching matches I hadn't seen and 90% of the time didn't even know about. At the very least people don't talk about a ton. My lack of wrestling knowledge is some staggering stuff, ESPECIALLY before the 2000s but I want to get in as much stuff as I can.

 

In the spree, I hit up some Vader matches and his ability to work bigger and smaller is one of my favorite capabilities for a wrestler to possess. Vader can give you 5 minutes or 20+ minutes and I'll be losing my shit for the entire duration regardless. Watched a random match against Dustin from '94 that went like 8 minutes and it was awesome. Dustin takes right to Vader, and Harley Race, and Vader bounces around. In the opening moments Dustin delivers two big slams before getting SQUASHED with Vader's bootylicious behind. Vader is just a bastard so he'll bat Dustin's head around. Obviously both wrestlers are great so Dustin makes everything look great but goodness. Great graps even if the ending is a bit shite.

 

For what it is worth, I really liked what Vader was doing in Japan in 2000. Even afterwards though while he might not have been great he was a fella who would still have an aura about him. Maybe a little less now though him working Heath Slater for a squash a couple years back did get me tingling.

He'll rank high with me. One of the guys I can always watch. It's 89-94(maybe 95) for me. I actually think he was good and had good stuff in WWF, I would just have wanted him to get a push and run like Yoko's WWF93 or his own WCW92/93 in 96/97. So it's only the booking that makes me not include those years as prime Vader.

There actually seem to be a lot of Vader detractors among former wrestlers.

Well, yeah, of course. They're the ones he was hitting. Super-stiff workers have generally been more popular among people who watch them, as opposed to people who actually have to get in the ring with them.

 

I just thought it was an interesting take. If a 450lb guy can do all the same things as the 200lb guy, why do you care about the 200lb guy?

Wasn't that philosophy the basic reason why Bill Watts made top-rope moves illegal in WCW?

 

Also, one would think the easy answer to your question would be "the 200lb guy does lots MORE movez and they look prettier than the big guy's stuff".

It's also not Vader's job to make everyone else's match interesting. That 200 lb guy with a lot of the same moves better step up his game and step outside of his comfort zone if Vader is on the card. Honky Tonk Man preferred schtick to actual wrestling, so it makes sense that he would have a problem with that.

Vader's a beast an easy top 20 or 30 guy. One of the last truly great monsters . I'd pay him to spend a week with Moose and Elgin in ROH.

Vader is definitely the most awesome big man ever. His matches with Sting and Cactus Jack were brutal and I mean that in a good way. I didn't care for the way Vince used him. I thought he should have been WWF champ as well. Vader is at number 5 in my top 100 as of right now.

Vader is definitely the most awesome big man ever. His matches with Sting and Cactus Jack were brutal and I mean that in a good way. I didn't care for the way Vince used him. I thought he should have been WWF champ as well. Vader is at number 5 in my top 100 as of right now.

#5? Wow!

 

Who do you have #1-4?

I don't know if I have Vader over Mark Henry or Crusher Blackwell, as it comes to giants. (He definitely doesn't beat Andre.) He's one guy I have to really try to revisit though.

I like Blackwell over Vader. Henry is an odd guy to gauge for me. But Henry is one of my favorites of the last 15yrs+. He's a Top-5/10 favorite in the time frame.

 

As for Andre. I saw him in the 70's and 80's. His NJPW match with Hansen is fuckin gold and better then anything Vader ever did that I saw. Or Blackwell or Henry for that matter.

Vader's still my #1 big man, with Andre, Blackwell, and Henry a ways behind him.

For the pro-Crusher crowd: which specific Blackwell matches would you say ranked above Vader's highlights such as the '96 Inoki match, '93 Flair match, the feuds against Sting, Yamazaki, Foley, and the various AJPW heavyweights that Big Van rocked the house with?

Vader will be at worst my third highest big man. Not sure whether he comes out above Henry or not. Henry is my dude, but Vader has the length and the kind of versatility that he doesn't.

 

Versatility is an odd choice of word since he's basically just Vader wherever he goes, but I think it is a credit to him that he is so universal that he can turn up anywhere - WCW, WWF, AWA, NJPW, AJPW, UWFI, etc. - and get over and have good matches just by Being Vader. He's one of those wrestling skeleton keys - opens any lock.

 

I think it was shoot-style Vader that really sold me on him more than anything else. Having a big fat American in a mask come in and throw powerbombs and shit in a shoot-style environment sounds so wacky and counter-productive on the surface, but he does exactly that and it's fucking awesome. Vader is great in UWFI because he's able to portray both being a legitimately dangerous mountain of a man, AND being a shooting novice who is totally out of his element. He has no real defense for grappling or leg kicks or anything else MMAish, but he could also swipe your whole head off your shoulders if you aren't careful. I love the dynamic.

 

That's the key to Vader everywhere really, like Brock he's big and powerful enough, and has enough of a badass aura that he can take the nutty bumps he does, get knocked down as often as he does, and sell as much as he does without losing any of his credibility. And his agility goes both ways too - he will bump all over the place, but he can also come off the top with a dive in a way that dudes his size just can't, which turns it back into something that makes him dangerous.

 

The Sting series in amazing and some of my favourite ever 90s matches. I really love his UWFI run - vs Takada, Tamura, Yamazaki, etc. Hansen matches. Flair match. Final Four. Lots of great stuff, and I haven't really seen anything from NJ.

I'd watch Vader/Choshu from 6/89, Jimmy. I actually re-watched it tonight and it was fucking awesome. I don't remember where I had it on my original New Japan 80s ballot, but if I had to redo it now I would probably have it top 20.

I ranked Vader 34th in 2016 and I'm fine with that. He could probably go 10-15 spots higher for me and I can't imagine him any lower than mid 30s. Its Vader. Of course he's fucking awesome. I dunno what else to say about him. 

There's a lot of discussion about Vader over bumping earlier a page/6 years ago (lol) and the only time I think his bumping is silly is the matches with Flair, and only because it's Ric Flair. And even then, it certainly worked for the crowd(s) it was in front of, so can you really count it as a negative? Part of what made Brock so awesome in his first run was he was this massive freak of nature bumping like a cruiserweight on Nitro.

On 4/29/2021 at 7:40 PM, strobogo said:

There's a lot of discussion about Vader over bumping earlier a page/6 years ago (lol) and the only time I think his bumping is silly is the matches with Flair, and only because it's Ric Flair. And even then, it certainly worked for the crowd(s) it was in front of, so can you really count it as a negative? Part of what made Brock so awesome in his first run was he was this massive freak of nature bumping like a cruiserweight on Nitro.

Yeah I honestly can't recall a match where his bumping for someone smaller actively bothered me. 

34 minutes ago, Boss Rock said:

Yeah I honestly can't recall a match where his bumping for someone smaller actively bothered me. 

Same - I think he does a really good job of bumping as a monster heel.