If we accept that Bret means faster pace as work rate I can buy into that argument that stampede did usher in a higher work rate .

 

Now Brainfollower I have watched 60-80 Hart Foundation competitive matches. I'm not pushing the argument that they aren't very good. I'm pushing the point that they were overrated and very formula in how they worked . They had really good matches to average matches with the same opponent. Which I found odd because they were formula, but not consistent .

I've always gone by the old Scott Keith definition of workrate as the ratio of action to inaction. Obviously, that's neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for having good matches. But the Bulldogs definitely upped the action in a way that, say, Greg Valentine didn't.

Workrate is an often overused or misused term but I think that's what Bret means when he talks about his workrate.

 

I recall him talking about Valentine (I believe talking about Valentine both were in Japan at the same time) as a good "solid" wrestler during a radio show. He may be thinking about the slower 89-91 Valentine but either way I don't know if he'd refer to Valentine as a guy with great workrate even if he was a pretty good wrestler. The way he spoke about Valentine wasn't dismissive at all, by the way.

I hear what you are saying Shoe. I feel like with the Harts, they were overrated and are now in danger of becoming underrated.

 

Recently on other boards I had to defend them as a better team in the WWF than either the POP or the new Dream Team, two totally absurd ideas IMO.

That is absurd Brain having to defend them against those 2 teams. feel they have plenty of good performances, but plenty of mediocre ones to go with the good.

 

None of the workers mentioned in this thread did 57 suplex variations. Marty Jones and Rocco invented the workrate style Bret is talking about. Bret is simply unaware of it because he doesn't know when Dynamite was 16 years old he was watching those guys tear it up.

I don't think it matters that Jones and Rocco influenced the Stampede style for this topic. All that means is that they indirectly raised the work in the WWF.

 

 

Bret gave a long, rambling reply that touched on more than just the topic at hand. He was more or less saying that Dynamite Kid was better than Flair in the period he worked Stampede. Since he's arguing that DK ushered in a new style of wrestling, it's fair to say that it wasn't exactly new. Regal makes the same point all the time about the DK/TM matches. I'm sure Rocco and Jones weren't the first ones to up the workrate, either, but in this case they specifically made DK what he was. And yes, this only relates to the WWF indirectly but it was part of the same answer.

I can definitely see Rocco as a workrate innovator, but I don't know about Jones. He's always struck me as a Regal-esque somewhat methodical worker.

Jones was supremely athletic when he was younger. Even when he gained weight, he was still only a mid-heavyweight and wrestled a hard hitting style. The only thing he really did methodically was take apart guys he had no time for.

From what I've read and heard from Bret over the years, he generally sounded ignorant when giving opinions on wrestling outside of his direct sphere of experience. Not that this ever held him back from sharing his views.

I've always gone by the old Scott Keith definition of workrate as the ratio of action to inaction. Obviously, that's neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for having good matches. But the Bulldogs definitely upped the action in a way that, say, Greg Valentine didn't.

The look of a Valentine elbow smash is far more "upped actiony" than A Bulldog doing something quickly. It's all such a weird discussion. Valentine had been a WWF guy and a Crockett guy. Snuka was a Georgia guy as well as Orndorff. The Calgary guys were three dudes plus Neidhart who had been in Mid South. There's no real clear distinctions.

Jones was supremely athletic when he was younger. Even when he gained weight, he was still only a mid-heavyweight and wrestled a hard hitting style. The only thing he really did methodically was take apart guys he had no time for.

 

What about Edouard Carpentier and Antonio Rocca? Not sure if they "invented" that faster-paced style or not, but they were guys doing more high-flying moves than anyone else in their era. And pro wrestling was an American export.

There were lightweights working super fast in the 60s in Europe, and I'm sure it goes back further than that and originated across the Atlantic. It was more specifically the style that DK brought to Stampede that was directly influenced by what Jones and Rocco were doing together. Regal also gives them credit for TM vs. DK.