Live cable ratings are NEVER going to make some big rebound. It's not going to happen in an era with cord cutting, DVRs, Hulu, youtube highlights, Sling TV, etc etc. The downward ratings trend has been going on since 2002. Despite their ratings drop they still have 2 of the top highest rated shows on cable so that tells you it's not like they're falling while everything else around them has been holding steady or going up.

 

 

 

 

Meltzer said that they even boo Reigns on house shows and they never really did that with Cena. I would also point out that ratings have been historically bad with Reigns and Rollins around the top of the card the last few years.

The hard numbers are ratings are in the toilet and the primary audience are old men. That's not very encouraging.

Isn't it a case that more and more younger people have new, more convenient ways to watch than tuning in live though? Not to defend them as Rollins, in particular, had a total business tanking quality run on top but aren't TV ratings meaning less and less these days?

 

This. People can say "numbers don't lie" all they want but it's not a primary audience of old men that we see in live crowds at events or talking about WWE on twitter and facebook. Even the people I follow on twitter that are in their 20s and live tweet Raw or Smackdown are watching by some kind of stream and not live cable.

Yes that's true but they have lost an insane amount of their audience in a really short period of time. This hasn't been attrition, this has been an exodus of people.

What evidence do we have that they really LOST this audience instead of considering that the audience shifted their viewing habits? People love saying they lost "20% of the audience over the last year" yet where else is this showing up except live cable ratings? They didn't lose 20% of Network subscribers, 20% of ticket buyers, social media engagement isn't down 20%, I've seen nothing to say that merchandise sales are down 20% from last year so that doesn't really seem to hold up to scrutiny.

Because those are the numbers we have to work with and their live numbers are pretty stagnant as well. There aren't millions of people streaming Raw every week. That stuff is still a relative drop in the bucket to viewership.

 

It's also happening when the product is absolute garbage on a weekly basis.

 

There is a vast difference between the hard numbers and what we all see plain as day in front of us. More than anything, I just wish WWE would try to figure out the root cause of that and fix it. They could make Sami Zayn champ and have the crowd (I mean that figuratively) or they could improve their creative so that their top babyfaces get cheered. Either way is fine with me. I just want crowd reactions and booking direction to align again.

Why would one assume that the people who are in the crowds make up the majority opinion about Raw instead of thinking that maybe they are a hardcore minority of people who spend tons of money going to shows? I'd trust the hard numbers more than I would fickle crowds who boo Roman and supposedly want someone else in his spot yet chant CM Punk while Sami Zayn is in the ring in a talking segment or play with a beach ball during a cruiserweight match.

 

And before someone says something about how they might alienate their fans by pushing someone those fans "reject" let's not discount signs that say "I came to boo Roman Reigns" the fact that we already saw that didn't happen with John Cena or that a lot of "I'm a smart, REAL wrestling fan!" are actually really stupid and are the types of people who buy tickets so they can go and attempt to "hijack" the show with chants.

 

 

This is a problem unique to this company at this time in pro wrestling history. That suggests it's a structural issue that can be fixed. To me, watching vocal fans, whether they are a majority or a minority isn't the issue. They reject the creative direction of the company on television and it's an uncomfortable viewing experience. And even if WWE is by and large delivering what their paying customers want to see, it creates an illusion that they aren't. Either give in to the loudmouths or outsmart them to get them on board. I don't care which. I would just rather it all align. A top babyface getting booed so passionately is sort of like watching a preschooler pee himself on stage in a school play. I just find it uncomfortable.

There is a vast difference between the hard numbers and what we all see plain as day in front of us. More than anything, I just wish WWE would try to figure out the root cause of that and fix it. They could make Sami Zayn champ and have the crowd (I mean that figuratively) or they could improve their creative so that their top babyfaces get cheered. Either way is fine with me. I just want crowd reactions and booking direction to align again.

I'm increasingly of the view that good creative may not have made much of a difference to Reigns' reactions. Some of the booking he's had has been flat out bad but I feel like a certain section of the audience will always reject him for what he represents in their mind (Vince's choice, Cena 2.0, Not Daniel Bryan) rather than for any on-screen booking. He's jobbed to Strowman in the last two PPVs and has put on consistently good matches for two years now and yet there's a narrative of Roman Always Wins and Roman Can't Work, in spite of reality.

If Daniel Bryan won the 2015 Royal Rumble, Reigns would be over as top babyface, precluding some other blunder after that. He wasn't getting booed after going solo in 2014.

If Daniel Bryan won the 2015 Royal Rumble, Reigns would be over as top babyface, precluding some other blunder after that. He wasn't getting booed after going solo in 2014.

So the poor handling of Daniel Bryan has basically killed off two potential top babyface runs (Sheamus and Reigns)

 

I'm not sure the genie can ever be put back into the bottle with the divided crowds with the Hijak Raw stuff from a few years ago, the CM Punk debacle and WWE flat out playing up to post-Mania crowds. As much as I would love the crowds to react as appropriate to the booking, I just don't think it'll happen now. There are now multiple audiences rather than a single, united audience.

 

EDIT: And I'll add that with the top level push of AJ Styles as well as good pushes for Owens, Rollins etc and the massive investment in NXT, WWE has gone pretty damn far to placate the smark section of that audience.

If the crowd reacted accordingly to the booking, they would just stop watching. WWE should be glad they got this smart-ass hardcore audience, because they're the most faithfull despite all the shitty product you can thrown at them. So yeah, the WWE should listen to their audience instead of constantly pissing on it. Pro-wrestling fans are like that though, they never ever quit. TNA is still around...

Oh, I agree that WWE does try placating that audience to an extent. But I don't know how different it is from their historic approach, when one might say they were placating a similar audience with Benoit, Jericho, Guerrero, Rey, etc, although admittedly each of those guys did prove to have broader appeal over time in different ways. It's treated as a new approach when I don't really see how it is. And to be clear, I'm someone who thinks they should be building around Reigns, Corbin, and Strowman, just as they are. Rollins and Ambrose are fizzling out. But I also think there's room to put guys like Cesaro and Zayn at least on the level of Styles, Owens, and Joe where they can be challengers in PPV main events anytime they are needed. I don't know -- it's more a personal thing than something I think they need to do for their survival or success. Watching a company at war with its hardcore audience regularly has moved from being strangely fascinating to tired and uncomfortable.

If Daniel Bryan won the 2015 Royal Rumble, Reigns would be over as top babyface, precluding some other blunder after that. He wasn't getting booed after going solo in 2014.

He got hurt really quick into that run. I don't think he was getting earth shattering reactions at the time.

 

I can't really blame the crowds. I would kind of want to boo too when Nakamura and Styles are on the roster and they're subjecting us to the Orton and Mahal program that won't end. Or just being pissed off in general at how boring the TV is on a weekly basis.

But let's also look at the booking itself. We're on the 3rd PPV in a row where it was a clean sweep of heels winning. That's absolutely dysfunctional booking on their part.

Oh, I agree that WWE does try placating that audience to an extent. But I don't know how different it is from their historic approach, when one might say they were placating a similar audience with Benoit, Jericho, Guerrero, Rey, etc, although admittedly each of those guys did prove to have broader appeal over time in different ways. It's treated as a new approach when I don't really see how it is. And to be clear, I'm someone who thinks they should be building around Reigns, Corbin, and Strowman, just as they are. Rollins and Ambrose are fizzling out. But I also think there's room to put guys like Cesaro and Zayn at least on the level of Styles, Owens, and Joe where they can be challengers in PPV main events anytime they are needed. I don't know -- it's more a personal thing than something I think they need to do for their survival or success. Watching a company at war with its hardcore audience regularly has moved from being strangely fascinating to tired and uncomfortable.

 

I think I basically agree with all of this tbh. I will say that Benoit, Guerrero, Jericho and Rey are head and shoulders above this generation of smark fan favourites except for I guess AJ, who is an all-timer imo.

If Daniel Bryan won the 2015 Royal Rumble, Reigns would be over as top babyface, precluding some other blunder after that. He wasn't getting booed after going solo in 2014.

 

to add on to my previous post when Bryan came back he was doing segments with Stephanie and getting revenge matches with Kane while Reigns was making his comeback against Fandango on a holiday issue of Smackdown and doing comedy promos with Rollins. All the tV going into the Rumble made it look like Bryan was going to get another run when he wasn't. They didn't even try to build up Reigns at all or give him a reason or motivation to rise to the top. It wouldn't have mattered as long as Bryan was there but they clearly thought they didn't have to do any work with him and he was ready made. Hurt the start of his run

And to be clear, I'm someone who thinks they should be building around Reigns, Corbin, and Strowman, just as they are.

 

I have no idea what people see in Corbin. Mediocre at very best in the ring, no charisma, bad hairline. He's like a big man JTTS on Thunder. I'm baffled.

I don't know if he's going to pan out to be what the company expects him to be, but he does have a bad ass aura a lot of the roster lacks. So many heels come off as someone playing bad guy, Corbin comes off as a legit bad guy who gives no fucks (probably because his real personality is not too far from that).

I dunno. He doesn't look much more bad-ass than Brian Lee as Chainz. Ok for mid-card. When you got Braun, Lesnar & Joe on your roster, I don't see a lack of bad-ass-don't-give-a-fuckery (although I don't care for Lesnar's matches anyore, but that's another thing).

They should push Corbin because people seem to buy Corbin. Of course, that's the same reason they should push guys like Kevin Owens and Sami Zayn. I'm all for more stars. I don't think we have to forge some type of ideological war between "smark" favorites and Vince's favorites. I think there's room for everyone.

yes I think it's possible to like the Zayn, Owens, Rollins types and still like Braun and Roman, etc but there seems to be "choose a side" a lot of the times

The whole "choose a side" is stupid as hell though. I like Zayn a lot. Don't care much for Owens. I like Braun a lot. Don't care much for Roman.

The problem is they can't think outside of the box. Let's say they decided to put the Smackdown World Title on Big E. They would either have him turn on New Day or have New Day turn on him first. Why can't Big E win the belt and stay with the New Day?

 

What I really want is for them to stop this nonsense with making faces look like impotent assholes at every turn and change the format of the TV. It's been 20 years, you can try new things.

Nah. Same set than in 2000. Authority figure. GM. Backstage acting with awkward pauses. That's it. That's the rule.

For a company that beats "we put smiles on faces" to death as a slogan, they sure do like to bum everyone out by making the good guys looks like geeks.

 

It's even more baffling when you consider the most money they ever made was when the evil boss and his minions were made to look like fools by the heroic everyman babyface on a regular basis. For as much as they continue to lionize that era (and they should, considering it was their most successful time) they sure don't seem to remember just why it was so great.

If Daniel Bryan won the 2015 Royal Rumble, Reigns would be over as top babyface, precluding some other blunder after that. He wasn't getting booed after going solo in 2014.

 

To go back even further, I think if they had called the audible and had Reigns toss Batista to win the 2014 Rumble, he would be exactly where they want him to be today. I was in Pittsburgh that night, and I have been too shows where the crowd has gone home disappointed, but that night the crowd went home fucking angry.

 

When Reigns and Batista were the last two in that match, a swell went across that crowd and Reigns momentarily became Hogan in 85, Austin in 98, and Sammartino in the 60's all rolled into one. Had he tossed Big Dave, the reaction would have been thunderous, and although he still wouldn't have been Daniel Bryan, all would have been well in Pittsburgh that night, and this dark path of The Office vs The Fans booking that I truly believe began that night because they no longer had a choice but to push Daniel Bryan, could have all been avoided.

If anyone is interested Bryan Alvarez got an email from a lawyer and read off all of the felonies that Reigns committed after the ambulance match. I believe it was in the range of 8 or 9.