I've still never seen an actual description of exactly how and why Carlito is supposed to be such a lazy load. Like tomk pointed out, it didn't start until after he traded in his endless chinlocks and other lack of '04 offense. People weren't calling him lazy back then, when he really sucked. It wasn't until he started doing Sabu type springboard manuevers that the "lazy" slander came out, which always mystified me. You can say you don't like it, but to say he's sitting on his ass and not putting forth any effort, it's just factually wrong. It's like this one dude I knew who had this weird obsession with insisting that Mariah Carey was literally the worst singer on the radio. It's all right if you don't like the crazy bitch, but don't just make shit up.

 

In fact, come to think of it, the whole trend started when the sheets published a couple of backstage reports about there supposedly being heat on the guy because of his poor performances. Suddenly every smark on the net was saying that Carly was a big pile of Nash who didn't have any "passion for the business".

You saying he has "passion for the business" Jingus? Have you seen his matches since the Flair feud? You can't "sit on your ass" in wwe but he sure is malling it in. I don't blame him but say what it really is.

Not saying he's all hungry and tearing at the bit like the WWE likes their employees to be, but I just don't see why we get the level of complaining about his laziness online that we do. I've seen people seriously claim that he was the crappier half of his tag team with Chris Masters, and, wow, hyperbole much? (Personally I think Masters could be wrestling a nonexistant invisible man and STILL be the worst worker in the ring.) Tonight I watched Carlito's match at Summerslam and his no-DQ bout with HHH, and while he wasn't exactly setting the world on fire, it's not like he was Sniskying it up out there either.

Well he is better than Masters but I think most people think, "well Masters is trying so he's better than Carlito who doesn't give a crap." And i'm convinced Snitsky has naked pictures of Vince or is really Stephanie's baby dad or something to still have a job.

From the Carlito/Flair feud on, Carlito was being booked as someone lazy, which I think made it easier for people online to buy into it.

 

My take on him has nothing to do with how lazy I think he is, and everything to do with the fact that it's very obvious he thinks it's Creative's job to come up with every single idea for him, where all he has to do is show up. It validates the HHH and Undertaker types who complain about that sort of thing.

 

Sometimes, you have to make your own break.

Well he is better than Masters but I think most people think, "well Masters is trying so he's better than Carlito who doesn't give a crap."

I wouldn't have said that when they were teaming. Not at all. Carlito, as TomK mentioned, was pretty good at that point.

 

Post-face turn, when he started doing the Shelton Benjamin/Davey Richards "workrate for the sake of workrate" style, and Masters started really putting in some effort, I'd have put Masters ahead of him. Mind you, that doesn't mean Carlito was lazy, just that he was bad. Masters' effort didn't totally cover for the fact that he sucked - which he did - but it was effort in the right direction, whereas Carlito's efforts were in opposition to what he did best. One thing that hasn't been noted yet here is that while doing the heavy workrate style, Carlito was still working the cool indifferent gimmick. As has been pointed out time and time again in arguments about alleged "great technicians", Shawn Michaels being a "Showstopper" in 2007, and MVP and The Miz being "bad workers", internet smarks who think they're above being fooled by wrestling gimmicks tend to be very easily taken in by wrestling gimmicks. Which means that if they're going to criticize Carlito, the most striking thing to them won't be anything he's actually doing in the ring, but his cool indifferent gimmick. So he's jumping high, jumping far, and doing all the other high energy stuff that some people love Shelton Benjamin for, and they criticize him for being lazy.

 

When he turned heel and feuded with Flair, he seemed to largely be back to his area of core competence. Masters was putting in maximum effort at this point, but he had certain glaring flaws as a worker that he failed to overcome. I remember his first match after being drafted to Smackdown, he beat up this jobber and busted out a lot of really good looking offense. And I mean A LOT, to the point where I found myself asking "isn't this supposed to be a squash? Why doesn't he slap on the Masterlock already? Yeah, Chris, you've got a nice elbowdrop, but I don't want them to have to cut time out of the Matt Hardy match just so you can prove that you've got a deep moveset."

So watching the Shire footage that was posted on DVDR, I'm wondering why WWE never made a bid for whatever San Francisco footage is left. There seems to be enough to make it worthwhile, and you'd think that Pat Patterson would have tried to lobby for it. It seems to meet the "WWF guys before they were stars" threshold, and you'd figure it would get used at least as much as the AWA stuff they haven't used outside of the DVD set.

It amazes me how quickly WWE can go from having nothing to suddenly having lots of top storylines, some of which even appear to be clicking and have potential. Not that I'm expecting it given his history, but there is actually big potential in a HHH/Jeff Hardy feud if it was done the right way.

So reading last Observer and big thing jumps out at me "Why is Abyss in booking meetings?"

 

The booking team is still Jarrett, Vince Russo, and Dutch Mantel. Mike Tenay, Abyss and Jeremy Borash sit in on many meetings and offer suggestions

Consolation prize for his one millionth thumbtack wound? But seriously, that is odd, he's an awfully scatterbrained guy. An actual conversation one time at TNA:

"Hi Abyss, how you doing."

"Hi man, what's your name? Jingus? Nice to meet you, Jingus."

"Um... you don't remember me?"

"(blank stare)"

"I was your manager in your match at that benefit show."

"(blank stare)"

"It was last week."

"(blank stare)"

"And we sat next to each other and bullshitted for like an hour in the locker room in Cornelia that one time."

"...sorry, brother, no. Nice to meet you."

 

I've "met" the dude at least a dozen times, and he never recalled having seen me ever before in his life. It wasn't him just messing with me either, it was pretty clear by the glazed look in his eye that his memory had just pulled a Memento. And it's not like I have one of those forgettable faces, considering I unfortunately look like a younger clone of Tony Schiavone, so lord only knows what the state of his brain is. In fact, come to think of it, Tracy Smothers was always the same way. Maybe it's a concussion thing.

I ended up having the priviledge of meeting Bret Hart today at a book signing.

 

Gotta say that, in spite of having a stroke several years ago, the guy looks great and looks happy, like he's finally content and relaxed. Really nice to see. It's not like he's completely weak or anything (when we shook hands, he definitely gripped my hand harder than I did his) but he's one of the few that can definitely say he can walk away from wrestling. It was nice to see and experience.

 

I think this was the type of thing I would've enjoyed more 15 years ago, because I would've had more fandom appeal for the signing, but I got some other satisfaction out of it: That someone I watched for years is back to pretty good health again. He'll never be in "wrestling shape" again, but I don't know if he needs to be right now.

From the "10 years ago in the Observer" article at wo.com

 

"Meltzer also pointed out that ‘there were more physiques than at any time in the past three or four years with the tell-tale side effects (swollen nipples, crater like acne on the back) and more muscular physiques associated with steroid use. And it’s not just limited to the women."

 

I assume he meant men at the end there. Right? if not that's kind of confusing.

 

I'm pretty sure he was trying to say the men looked like that but also the women

Armageddon was pretty fun, I don't know how it translated on TV but the crowd was pretty hot for the whole show. There was a big fight in the crowd behind the announce tables during Finlay-Khali, and that was the only time the crowd wasn't really up for anything.

 

I gotta say, Jericho still has it. He wasn't over at all when the match started but people were marking hard for him to win by the end.

 

Also at the end of the women's match, Lilian got up to hand the belt to the ref, apparently got her boot caught on something, and took a header on the floor in front of the announce table. Don't know if anyone saw it on TV, but the mic was on and the whole arena heard the splat.

I gotta say, Jericho still has it. He wasn't over at all when the match started but people were marking hard for him to win by the end.

That's good to hear and it doesn't surprise me. Jericho does know his way around the wrestling ring and has always been underrated in that department I feel.

DO NOT MESS WITH DAMIEN DEMENTO.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq94qg_zrtg

I think we need a Kenta Kobashi thread. We haven't even had a mention here of Kobashi coming back from cancer which I think is just wrong.

 

 

How much of a legend is Kobashi going to become?

If it warrants a thread, start a thread.

 

Be the change you want to see in the world.

New Japan Match List

 

That site has been that way for seemingly a few years now. It says to check back often to see updates, but as far as I can tell, it's never been updated since it's original posting.

I have all the 1990-1992 WONs, and could update that list and post it here.

 

If someone else could do 1993 and 1998-1999, we could finish out the NJ 90s list.

Awesome.

 

Sadly though, I don't have a SINGLE copy of the WON.

2/3 Falls: El Hijo del Santo , Mascara Sagrada & El Mexicano beat Wild Pegasus, Black Tiger & Black Cat (14:25). Mexicano used a Liger bomb on Tiger (5:01). Tiger pinned Mexicano (4:14). Santo submitted Cat (5:10).

Holy shit. Santo has been in the same ring as Benoit?!?!?!?

 

Please tell me this match exists on tape? 11/16/94 is the date.

Wild Pegasus & Shinjiro Otani beat Koji Kanemoto & Black Tiger 3/7/95 - I believe this is the match JDW referenced in his NJPW pimping post. Does this exist on tape?

First post, don't want to open new threads for no reason and locating a question in this one.

 

Can anyone list all the MSC matches Lawler and Dundee had in the 80's? Sadly, while I haven't seen any but one from the 70's, I know they had an estimated million(with varied stipulations galore). As for the 80's though, I am aware of the June 83 and December 85 LLT matches. Regarding any matches further, I'm sadly at loss. There is the match in Dundee's "Opening The Vault" though(viewed here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p05x_QqeNbE) which is easily recognizable as an 80's match between the two, and I even think preceeds one of the talked about bouts above.

 

All helper would be deeply thanked in advance.

www.prowrestlinghistory.com recently put up a huge list of MSC cards dating back to the 70's. It's not complete, but I would assume most of the major Lawler/Dundee match listings would be on their lists.

Thanks, I actually gave that list quite a rundown(amazing how much mouth-watering matchups are there, ain't it?) sometime ago but I asked the question for mentions of taped matches too, which is something not noted in the prowreshistory page. My full apologies for it not being mentioned up there too.