I thought we were going to do joshi but I am wondering if a smaller set like Portland might be easier. The big drawback with Portland is a lack of stuff from 85-89.

 

I know Phil wants Islands stuff but I am not feeling the Islands at all or very enthused to collect for it right now. He may very well feel the same way about Portland.

 

With Joshi, I have the DG 80s stuff out and Loss and Childs have it but there hasn't been much activity there. Phil, you have the AJW Classics. I may start knocking out the Classics but I have been more up for researching and watching old NWA territories so we can pound out an early 80s NWA territory category.

 

Obviously we have plenty of time to discuss this stuff but the folders have slowed down and we need to keep this train moving.

Why not All Japan or New Japan? I wouldn't mind Portland, but there is that big block of time we would need to try to get our hands on. We should also throw any California stuff out there in with Portland

AJ or NJ, I thought we were waiting for Dan to complete the season sets.

Goofy compromise idea: Hawaii with Portland & California as Pacific US.

 

Now, for California, does anyone know if there's any decent CCW or was it all crappy? (Kris?)

I've seen some CCW around I think Warburton has some but who knows what is on it worth a shit.

I actually thought of combining Portland with the AWA since neither set will probably light the world on fire as stand alone sets. If you want to throw Hawaii and Cali on there, that would be fine with me as well.

 

I know we were concerned about those early NWA territories, but unless you guys can direct me to a huge reservoir of footage, I think we can really start to condense alot of those smaller territories. For example, I am about to sample the St. Louis DVDs, and if I don't see a bunch of standout matches, I think we can throw that under the NWA banner as well. Add Central States to that list also. Florida, Georgia, Mid Atlantic and Maple Leaf can all be grouped under the NWA banner as far as I can see.

Let's keep Hawaii with the Islands set, and make the next set West Coast with AWA/Portland/California. I think St. Louis and Central States should just get thrown in with NWA

I'm watching the Joshi stuff, but it's been a crazy couple of weeks so I haven't had time to post my notes. With 80-100 discs at 4 hours each, it's going to take awhile.

I agree that joshi will take awhile to slog through. That is why I sent the set out to you in advance so when we do get to that set, we'll have a head start. No one expects you to go through all 100 discs by the time Memphis is finished.

 

If we combine Portland with the AWA, I'll invite my buddy KHawk in here and we'll try to hammer out something. I don't know of any worthwhile California footage.

Hey Will, why don't you change Portland to West Coast, so people can start adding in nominations for AWA and Cali matches. Also are we sure we don't want to do New Japan next? I had a blast watching the classics show last night

I don't get doing AWA as part of West Coast, even if they took over the Bay Area and ran TV out of Vegas which is close to but not on the West Coast.

Yeah, I got resistance from Loss on that subject a couple of nights ago as well. I don't know why he hasn't posted it yet but Loss wanted to do the following for USA categories...

 

AWA (own category) (I invited KHawk already)

Mid Atlantic / Crockett (Everything post national Crockett combined with Maple Leaf/Mid Atlantic including all Starrcades, 1980-89)

Other USA (Portland, Georgia, Florida, Southwest, Central States, St. Louis, Continental, etc.)

World Class (by itself)

 

Some things I agree with including doing World Class by itself. However, I don't ever plan on doing a 200 match set so I don't know if a 1980-89 Mid Atlantic/Crockett/Turner set is possible from a logistics standpoint.

 

All of this is down the road so I am not that caught up in it yet. I am just glad we are getting ahead on other territories.

 

As for what is next, I have a ton of New Japan but I already took the time out to distribute all of my joshi and Memphis. Also, I want to wait until Dan releases all TV years (or as many as he says can be done). That is why I haven't been begging to do All Japan even though I have been tearing through those classics.

Loss's idea is kind of crazy, the Crockett set would be 200 matches at a minumum, even with 200 matches we would still be cutting so close that awesome stuff like the Havock six man with the Samoans and Manny v. Abby probably wouldn't make the cut. That enormous Other US set would have the same problem. I see no reason to make big changes to what we already planned.

Well, I'll let him explain it since I am throwing it up here 2nd hand. As for New Japan, in between Joshi and Memphis, watch New Japan and get us ahead on that category for when the time comes.

I'm in favor of uniting the NWA territories that were eventually bought or taken over by JCP (Central States, St. Louis, GCW, CWG, & Florida) along with Maple Leaf pre-WWF takeover.

 

I still think that SWCW/TASW/USAASW and pre-Watts Houston should be combined w/ WCCW as "Texas."

 

Portland has enough long great matches that I think it should be kept on its own or with the relatively small additions to make it "West Coast.'

 

Would anything from WIN in '89 be better off as part of Mexico or along w/ Portland, LA, and whatever we can dig up for West Coast since the tapings were all in San Berdidino? What about other California Lucha like Santo-Casas from LA in '87?

 

Southeastern/Continental is touch and go, depending on what we can get (there a dude with most of the TV from '86-'90 who's slowly converting them to DVD). I would think that we'd also want to include USACW and WOW in the same set.

 

AWA should have enough for at least a smaller set.

I'm in favor of uniting the NWA territories that were eventually bought or taken over by JCP (Central States, St. Louis, GCW, CWG, & Florida) along with Maple Leaf pre-WWF takeover.

CWG?

 

 

I still think that SWCW/TASW/USAASW and pre-Watts Houston should be combined w/ WCCW as "Texas."

Do we have any pre-Watts Houston? I see wher ehe is coming from with Southwest and agree it would fit better on an "Other" set. However, it really depends on which way we go if there will even be an "Other" set.

 

 

Portland has enough long great matches that I think it should be kept on its own or with the relatively small additions to make it "West Coast.'

I agree with this on the condition that we can pick up more POrtland from 85-onward.

 

 

Would anything from WIN in '89 be better off as part of Mexico or along w/ Portland, LA, and whatever we can dig up for West Coast since the tapings were all in San Berdidino? What about other California Lucha like Santo-Casas from LA in '87?

I respect Jose's opinion enough to let him make that call. It would be wierd but cool to see Santo-Casas along Piper-Rose.

 

 

Southeastern/Continental is touch and go, depending on what we can get (there a dude with most of the TV from '86-'90 who's slowly converting them to DVD). I would think that we'd also want to include USACW and WOW in the same set.

This, along with late Florida has caused me the most pain. Only because I don't think there will be enough footage nominated to actually make a respectable set.

 

 

AWA should have enough for at least a smaller set.

If we can agree to 50 AWA matches, I have no problem making AWA its own category. The fact that it was considered one of the big three probably should give it at least some respect in that regard. KHawk is part of the group now so we'll let him chime in.

I'm in favor of uniting the NWA territories that were eventually bought or taken over by JCP (Central States, St. Louis, GCW, CWG, & Florida) along with Maple Leaf pre-WWF takeover.

CWG?

Championship Wrestling from Georgia, Ole Anderson & Fred Ward's promotion on TBS Saturday mornings post-Black Saturday. Had a brief working agreement w/ Jarrett.

 

I still think that SWCW/TASW/USAASW and pre-Watts Houston should be combined w/ WCCW as "Texas."

Do we have any pre-Watts Houston? I see wher ehe is coming from with Southwest and agree it would fit better on an "Other" set. However, it really depends on which way we go if there will even be an "Other" set.

I think some of the USA All-Star Wrestling pre-Watts Houston is '80s (some is '70s). Kris would be able to ID what is from when. And I really think it works to include San-Antonio w/ WCCW as Texas, especially since they shared a lot of talent in '85-'86.

 

Portland has enough long great matches that I think it should be kept on its own or with the relatively small additions to make it "West Coast.'

I agree with this on the condition that we can pick up more POrtland from 85-onward.

From the list Kris made, Steve F. has these:

 

#395 = Portland 9/88

#299 = Portland 9/3 - 10/22/88

#734 = Portland 11/23 - 12/10/88

#620 = Portland 12/3/88 - 1/7/89

#906 = Portland 2/89

#330 = Portland 4/8 - 4/29/89

#350 = Portland 5/6 - 6/3/89

#363 = Portland 6/17 - 7/8/89

#361 = Portland 7/5 - 8/5/89

#375 = Portland 8/5 - 8/26/89

#362 = Portland 10/7 - 10/28/89

#364 = Portland 11/1 - 12/2/89

#374 = Portland 12/9/89 - 1/6/90

 

Verne Siebert has a bunch of '86 & '89: http://www.a1wrestlingvideos.com/tapes_180_191.htm

 

Would anything from WIN in '89 be better off as part of Mexico or along w/ Portland, LA, and whatever we can dig up for West Coast since the tapings were all in San Berdidino? What about other California Lucha like Santo-Casas from LA in '87?

I respect Jose's opinion enough to let him make that call. It would be wierd but cool to see Santo-Casas along Piper-Rose.

I concur.

 

Southeastern/Continental is touch and go, depending on what we can get (there a dude with most of the TV from '86-'90 who's slowly converting them to DVD). I would think that we'd also want to include USACW and WOW in the same set.

This, along with late Florida has caused me the most pain. Only because I don't think there will be enough footage nominated to actually make a respectable set.

I say we hold off on East TN & Alabama for now until I see what those conversions may be up to.

 

Late Florida meaning the FCW/PWF stuff? That should be "Other US," it's a separate promotion from CWF.

 

AWA should have enough for at least a smaller set.

If we can agree to 50 AWA matches, I have no problem making AWA its own category. The fact that it was considered one of the big three probably should give it at least some respect in that regard. KHawk is part of the group now so we'll let him chime in.

Yeah, Kevin will know what to do.

If the AWA can't be done as a seperate set, I would combine it with St. Louis and Central States. The AWA/West Coast combo makes no sense to me personally.

 

I think 50 matches is easy if that's the bar for the AWA having it's own set, but I'm biased. Plus it depends on some other things, too...

 

The problematic part of AWA match footage is that so many of the better matches are "JIP" before 1984. The AWA on TSN made for a lot more complete matches and a lot of unaired "classic bouts" shown in the middle of the show, but mostly those were also in progress. ESPN gave us a lot of complete matches, but in an era of obvious decline for the promotion.

 

So, the question becomes about how much of a match needs to be available for it to be properly rated in this sort of forum? If criteria has been established in this vein already please let me know what it is and I can estimate what is available better.

 

What about matches between AWA wrestlers outside of the AWA-proper? Zurkov and Ustinov in a non-title match vs. The Midnight Rockers in BIrmingham, or Ustinov/Somers losing the titles to Dundee/Lawler in Memphis, or Rick Martel defending the AWA title against Mean Mike Miller in Portland, for example?

 

If these answers are available I'm sure I will find them as I read everything over in this forum, of course.

 

A point of interest I can offer right off the bat is an EXCEL document of all the known AWA Winnipeg matches that are available on video. There are a few I need to add from Dan G's World Pro set, but that's it. It's categorized by year, and useful information includes the length of the available clips vs. Actual running time of the bout, and the VQ of the versions that I have. There are also some liner notes. If nothing else it gives a good sense of the percentages of pre-'84 Winnipeg stuff that is available on video in terms of match completeness.

 

If anyone wants to review it, just PM me your e-mail and I will send it out.

 

I also have a WORD document of Charles Warburtons list that I can e-mail out to anyone that needs it. Just thinking out loud as I saw another topic about this here.

KHawk, that is why I wanted you involved in AWA. It is your specialty and your input would be priceless.

 

As for completeness, it really depends on how much it is JIP or clipped. For example, there is a Hansen-Martel match from the AJ Classics that is clipped in the middle. I don't know how much is clipped. You could help answer that. If there is universal agreement on if a match should be included, we'll include it.

KHawk, that is why I wanted you involved in AWA. It is your specialty and your input would be priceless.

 

As for completeness, it really depends on how much it is JIP or clipped. For example, there is a Hansen-Martel match from the AJ Classics that is clipped in the middle. I don't know how much is clipped. You could help answer that. If there is universal agreement on if a match should be included, we'll include it.

Most clipped AWA matches are joined at a certain point and shown uncut until the end. It rarely happens that the middle of a bout is cut out...the one exception I can think of off-hand is Brunzell vs. Bockwinkel where 30 minutes of a 60 minute draw is shown, 5 minutes from the opening bell, then cut until the last 25 minutes of the bout.

 

Here are a few examples from my Winnipeg listings about what a JIp typically involves in terms of included footage:

 

 

Billy Robinson vs. Tito Santana Sept 24 1981 10:47/20:00 EX- time limit draw

Nick Bockwinkel (AWA Champion) vs. Sheik Kaissie* Sept 24 1981 6:34/16:34 39.70% VG alt date: Nov. 5 1981. First bout out of three.

 

Nick Bockwinkel (AWA Champion) vs. Jim Brunzell (non-title) June 11 1981 13:03/16:22 79.80% VG

Nick Bockwinkel (AWA Champion) vs. Jim Brunzell July 16th 1981 30 m 40 s/60 min 52.00% EX-

 

Checking my list again, I note that there is a lot more complete matches available than I remembered. Of the rest, and most of the St. Paul stuff, the above is more typical of what is shown in a JIP. Again, the Draw is the only one that cut the middle out that stands out in my memory.

For example, there is a Hansen-Martel match from the AJ Classics that is clipped in the middle. I don't know how much is clipped.

I'm assuming that is the switch from the Meadowlands on 12/29/85. I'll have to look up an actual match time if I can find it somewhere. That is the longest clip that has ever been shown of that bout and I don't think a ton was clipped from that version (it wasn't a really long bout as I recall).

So the whole reason I was adamant about having Crockett on one set is because I think you should be able to rate any Starrcade match against any Starrcade match when submitting a ballot, or any Great American Bash match against any Bash match, or whatever other comparisons you want to make. The ballot would have so much intrigue over what scored #1. That said, I think I have a solution.

 

Divide it however you want. Whatever is most feasible in terms of distributing the footage, because the most important thing is that people get to see it. Let people submit a ballot for whatever the first NWA set is, and then another ballot for whatever the second NWA set is.

 

After that, have a bonus ballot where they can send mookieghana a combined ballot from both sets, which would be calculated separately.

 

So from both NWA sets, you'd have ballots for the following:

 

NWA 1980-1985

NWA 1986-1989

NWA Overall

 

When the idea for the 80s set was put forth, Crockett was a set I was looking forward to the most. Not being able to compare the Magnum/Tully "I Quit" match to the first War Games just doesn't seem right. So maybe the solution is to continue to do an extra set, but work in an extra ballot, because I really want to see how all the big NWA matches from the 80s will rank when all of them are compared to each other.

With the news that ESPN Classics is going to be airing AWA shows, should we put off AWA for a bit. Do we already have that run of TV in good quality?

With the news that ESPN Classics is going to be airing AWA shows, should we put off AWA for a bit. Do we already have that run of TV in good quality?

1985 to May 1986 is spotty, in terms of complete, dated shows. 1987 is partially available. 1998 just came out and Vintagewrestling is going to follow up with 1989 soon. I'll be getting that 89 set and I have the 86 and 87 stuff that is out there now, plus I have received the 88 set. All that stuff is nice VQ so replacing it is nice but perhaps not necessary (in terms of waiting for it to re-air).

 

I get the impression that the AWA is down the list a bit, anyways.

 

(FYI I may need a hookup for this if it doesn't air in Canada on our ESPN Classics station, for whomever ends up taping this... )

I am in no rush to do AWA esp. if Portland is a separate set.