"It sucked apart from the top star, top heel, booking, announcing and all the talented guys who worked there" is a hell of a sentence.

Look at the WWE. They have a great babyface ace, they have a bunch of good babyfaces, they have some great heels, it is being booked by a guy who has been a great booker for decades plus his son in law who is churning out quality stuff down in NXT. Yet people don't like the product.

 

I asked Dave about Dundee and got this, I don't know what world I'm living in anymore -

 

"I saw Dundee live too many times to be enamored of him.

But, he was a very good promo.

There was a reason Crockett would only use him as a butler and Watts ordered him out of the ring when he was booker."

 

 

This is Dick Murdoch redux in terms of the quality of the argument. But Dave probably hasn't watched Memphis TV from the '80s since the '80s. So honestly, who gives a shit what he thinks about Dundee's work? We know better.

 

He's broadly correct about how important Lawler was, however.

Look at the WWE. They have a great babyface ace, they have a bunch of good babyfaces, they have some great heels, it is being booked by a guy who has been a great booker for decades plus his son in law who is churning out quality stuff down in NXT. Yet people don't like the product.

I really disagree with your use of great.

From 2009:

 

"*Gene & Ole Anderson

Strengths: Consistent headliners as a tag team in the Carolinas and Georgia territories throughout the 70s during a period when they more often than not worked main events. Generally considered the legendary tag team in the Carolinas, which when they started teaming was a tag team territory, and remained the veteran top heel team when the big stars came in and it became a singles territory. Ole Anderson, in particular, was one of the greatest heels and talkers of his era. One of the few tag team in history who were at one point top ten draws (9th place, 1977).

Weaknesses: Never “in demand” wrestlers outside of their territory, when it came to being brought in for the hot spot cities like New York, St. Louis, Toronto, Tokyo or Houston like most Hall of Famers from that era were. When it comes to worldwide star power and drawing power, not among the top candidates on the ballot and have never come close in recent elections."

Where does that 9th place number come from?

Dave did an "analysis" thingy of 10,000+ cards once upon a time, I think from data that Matt gave him. At the time, any number of us thought that Dave's analysis was off base.

 

 

 

I asked Dave about Dundee and got this, I don't know what world I'm living in anymore -

 

"I saw Dundee live too many times to be enamored of him.

 

But, he was a very good promo.

 

There was a reason Crockett would only use him as a butler and Watts ordered him out of the ring when he was booker."

 

This is Dick Murdoch redux in terms of the quality of the argument. But Dave probably hasn't watched Memphis TV from the '80s since the '80s. So honestly, who gives a shit what he thinks about Dundee's work? We know better.

 

He's broadly correct about how important Lawler was, however.

Is our love of Dundee a more modern view? Was he not well-regarded in the 80's. When I watch 80's Memphis he's an easy Top 50 all-time pick, I just assumed Dave would be with me.

 

 

 

I asked Dave about Dundee and got this, I don't know what world I'm living in anymore -

 

"I saw Dundee live too many times to be enamored of him.

 

But, he was a very good promo.

 

There was a reason Crockett would only use him as a butler and Watts ordered him out of the ring when he was booker."

 

This is Dick Murdoch redux in terms of the quality of the argument. But Dave probably hasn't watched Memphis TV from the '80s since the '80s. So honestly, who gives a shit what he thinks about Dundee's work? We know better.

 

He's broadly correct about how important Lawler was, however.

Is our love of Dundee a more modern view? Was he not well-regarded in the 80's. When I watch 80's Memphis he's an easy Top 50 all-time pick, I just assumed Dave would be with me.

 

 

My impression is that few people outside the Memphis viewing area would have considered Dundee a top worker in the '80s. I don't know what those reading the Observer thought at the time. But Dundee wasn't played up in the mags and wasn't someone who meant anything to me as a fan of NWA/WWF/UWF. The Lawler matches were always pimped of course, but the DVDVR set did his reputation a lot of good. He finished 136 in the Smarkschoice poll; I'll be surprised if he doesn't crack the top 100 in GWE.

Dave's criticism of Memphis is likely influenced by the old pre-Observer newsletters. I believe it was in a Matmania issue where I assume Burt Ray wondered how those crappy Tennessee wrestlers could have such huge houses.

There's also the persistent gospel from Flair - who Meltzer clearly reveres - that Dundee was a nobody.

What if he really never thought highly of Dundee's work?

Dave has said that he attended a Lawler vs Dundee match at the MSC (May have been one of the Loser Leaves Town matches) and was blown away by it.

 

In general though, Dave is prejudiced against southern territorial wrestling.

There's also the persistent gospel from Flair - who Meltzer clearly reveres - that Dundee was a nobody.

 

What's the story here? Why on earth would Flair have heat with Dundee, of all people?! Some mishap or perceived slight during the Flair-Regal matches, perhaps? Bizarre. Flair really comes across as an old, cranky, bitter, drunken, insecure dickhead sometimes.

What if he really never thought highly of Dundee's work?

 

Imagine it being as simple as that.

 

Before I discovered this board, I don't think I ever encountered effusive praise for Bill Dundee. Let's not pretend he's some universally revered super worker.

Flair's heat with Dundee comes from the fact that they were supposed to work each other at MSC...but Dundee jobbed the Southern Title off to Koko to avoid from losing to Flair.....

After immigrating to America, Dundee's stardom was largely limited to just the Memphis territory. He never did much top-level work elsewhere. More wrestling fans saw him as Sir William than anything else he ever did outside of CWA/USWA (and, arguably more than saw him in Memphis as well, considering how widely WCW was broadcasted).

 

What if he really never thought highly of Dundee's work?

It is a bummer how people go rushing to try and find some scapegoat or outside influence to explain things. Much of the time, people simply say what their real opinions truly are.

Flair's heat with Dundee comes from the fact that they were supposed to work each other at MSC...but Dundee jobbed the Southern Title off to Koko to avoid from losing to Flair.....

 

That is even more bizarre. In what galaxy is it preferable to lose to Koko instead of Flair, unless there was already heat there and Dundee and Koko were buddies?

In the world where he could get his win back vs Koko?

Maybe, a lot of the local territorial stars tended to be leery of working with national stars who dropped in for the occasional guest spot. They were afraid of having their heat scooped by a guy who wasn't gonna be there next week to return the favor, which did happen sometimes.

 

What if he really never thought highly of Dundee's work?

 

Imagine it being as simple as that.

 

Before I discovered this board, I don't think I ever encountered effusive praise for Bill Dundee. Let's not pretend he's some universally revered super worker.

 

 

I was just very surprised. It's like if I was on The Board trying to tell someone how good Tully Blanchard was back in the day, and Dave came in and said he wasn't much of a worker. I didn't realize Dundee was polarizing.

Bill Dundee is like the Gran Hamada of Memphis.

I think the crux of the Dundee/Flair thing was that Dundee was heel......Flair was portrayed as heel......Dundee didn't want to be cheered so went with Koko instead since Lawler big loss was being saved for Dundee in a month.

In general though, Dave is prejudiced against southern territorial wrestling.

 

Which is why he liked the Mid Atlantic territory, loved his summers in Florida watching that territory, and spoke highly of Georgia. He was in Texas at its peak, and has praised the era for decades while admitting the flaws/errors/fuckton of dope. He loved WattsLand.

 

On the flip side, he didn't care for the Alabama promotion, though it wasn't widely traded. And he was up-and-down on Memphis.

 

4 that he loved/praised. One that he was mixed about. One he generally ignored.

 

That's before getting into SMW that he liked before it started to fade/fall.

 

Dave's pretty okay with southern wrestling. He had other issues with Memphis.

Alabama rasslin is everything that is good in this world to hell with Dave Meltzer.

I don't think Dave hated Alabama wrestling. It's just that when you're tracking 15-20 promotions and watching a ton of stuff in 1982-85 before everything started dying, where would Bama rate? Especially since it's not like main event stuff was as easy to get your hands on as it was with other promotions. Hence "didn't care for" - it just didn't rate all that high.

 

Though I'm sure there are folks who loved the Fullers and Armstrongs more than anything in the world.