So is it generally accepted that when Cena complains about Rock in the media, he's just being a Vince mouthpiece and isn't really expressing his own views?

Yes.

I don't know that I would agree with that. It may very well be a viewpoint that originated with Vince McMahon, but it's possible that Cena is misguided enough to believe it himself as well.

He may believe it, but that's not why he says it. Cena is like Hogan. He doesn't shoot.

How much do you guys REALLY think Rock is going to move the Mania buyrate? Last year they apparently had 1,059,000 buys last year, however only 663,000 of them were domestic. Just judging from ratings, attendance and overall fan interest, how much higher can that domestic number really go? 750,000? I'm not trying to say that possibly bringing in an extra 100,000 PPV buys is insignificant, but I don't see this Mania blowing last year's number out of the water or anything.

How much do you guys REALLY think Rock is going to move the Mania buyrate? Last year they apparently had 1,059,000 buys last year, however only 663,000 of them were domestic. Just judging from ratings, attendance and overall fan interest, how much higher can that domestic number really go? 750,000? I'm not trying to say that possibly bringing in an extra 100,000 PPV buys is insignificant, but I don't see this Mania blowing last year's number out of the water or anything.

I'm thinking a little higher than last year. HITC and Rock/Cena should do it.

The amount of lapsed Attitude Era fans shouldn't be underestimated. I'm not saying they're going to double last year's buys but it really shouldn't shock people if it comes in significantly higher. The problem is that they won't keep any of them around once they tune in Raw and see dumb shit like Zack the human Wile E. Coyote.

The amount of lapsed Attitude Era fans shouldn't be underestimated. I'm not saying they're going to double last year's buys but it really shouldn't shock people if it comes in significantly higher. The problem is that they won't keep any of them around once they tune in Raw and see dumb shit like Zack the human Wile E. Coyote.

I think the amount of lapsed Attitude Era fans can be underestimated, because Rock's segments on Raw have not been some big spike compared to the rest of the show. If there haven't been a large number of old fans turning in to Raw to see him for free when he's there, why should we expect they are going to pay $50 to see him at Mania?

Last year's Mania was way up from the previous year just based on the idea that Rock was going to be doing a run-in, so it's not crazy to think a match with Cena will mean a lot. Another thing to remember is that Rock's schedule is devoted to Mania for the next 5 weeks. He's advertised for almost every RAW, and I would assume he's going to be able to do a lot of press appearances for them and hopefully get the word out to the very casual fans that don't watch every week.

They should be using Rock's match with Cena as a chance to totally re-define WWE -- new look and logo, new guys being pushed all over the card, a new philosophy, a unifying theme to the show and so on. That's what they did with Tyson, and that's why they were able to sustain the initial attention. Rock/Cena may pop a number (although I by no means think that's a guarantee), but it's a false high and they'll be exactly where they were. We're really going to see how bad of a position WWE is in after Mania when Rock/Cena is a thing of the past, Undertaker and HHH aren't regulars again, Jericho is gone, etc.

I think if the Network would have debuted on Mania Day then we might have had something like you said Loss but it's not so it's going to be just another Mania.

I get why guys resent Rock. Maybe its not justified but I get it.

 

I think we all have a relative that does better than us. Your parents, grand parents and your aunts and uncles rub it in your face. He then shows up on the odd Thanksgiving. Marching in like the conquering hero. He makes small talk, condescends to you about spending more time together, but you know he has no intention of staying in touch. One year you would like to knock him off his throne and show him he is no better than anybody else.

 

Personally I think that is Cena's motivation in the feud and my guess is how the other guys feel in reality. Its not necessarily justified, but it is understandable.

I agree with that. I don't fault guys so much for their feelings on Rock. I am more shocked that most wrestlers don't pay attention to house show attendance and PPV buys, and that they use the Internet to determine what is and isn't working. Eek.

WWE has developed a system where their Superstars don't need to know the house, the advance, how to book a pro wrestling storyline, or even how to cut a promo. WWE does all of that for them; they just need to show up at the arena and they will be told what to do. If they don't like it, they can leave WWE - and drop off the face of the earth.

 

This is another long-term result of the death of WCW and ECW.

I get so tired of hearing about the Helms job. He did not have to do anything, but it wasn't like Helms hit his finisher. Rock beat him down with ease and got distracted by Austin's music and Helms rolled him up. They ended up playing Austin's music and ignoring Helms.

 

I mean its cool Rock did it, but WWE went to a lot of trouble to show Helms was a lucky jobber.

I get so tired of hearing about the Helms job. He did not have to do anything, but it wasn't like Helms hit his finisher. Rock beat him down with ease and got distracted by Austin's music and Helms rolled him up. They ended up playing Austin's music and ignoring Helms.

 

I mean its cool Rock did it, but WWE went to a lot of trouble to show Helms was a lucky jobber.

 

I think the point of bringing it up is that other than Flair, no one else on the level Rock was at would even do a slip-on-a-banana-peel job to a guy like Helms.

I mean he did a clean job to Rhino is a tag in 2001 and semi clean to RVD that year. So he is definitely willing to put dudes over, I just think Helms is a bad example.

I think what differentiates it from other similar non-jobs top guys have done is that it did get a few weeks of build, Rock showed ass for him on the promos in the buildup, and Hurricane was at least mixed in with the top guys for a little while afterward -- working HHH, Jericho and Flair at various points over the next two months and even doing a (failed) run-in to try to save Booker and Michaels from a HHH/Jericho/Flair attack. Hardly torch passing-type stuff, but it did benefit him a little. I do see the point, though. It wasn't a strong, clean job in the sense we normally think of one.

I think what differentiates it from other similar non-jobs top guys have done is that it did get a few weeks of build, Rock showed ass for him on the promos in the buildup, and Hurricane was at least mixed in with the top guys for a little while afterward -- working HHH, Jericho and Flair at various points over the next two months and even doing a (failed) run-in to try to save Booker and Michaels from a HHH/Jericho/Flair attack. Hardly torch passing-type stuff, but it did benefit him a little. I do see the point, though. It wasn't a strong, clean job in the sense we normally think of one.

John can probably help out with this but I remember Helms doing a clean job to Triple H just a few weeks later.

Night after Wrestlemania 18. But he did get a decent amount of offense in.

Last year's Mania was way up from the previous year just based on the idea that Rock was going to be doing a run-in, so it's not crazy to think a match with Cena will mean a lot. Another thing to remember is that Rock's schedule is devoted to Mania for the next 5 weeks. He's advertised for almost every RAW, and I would assume he's going to be able to do a lot of press appearances for them and hopefully get the word out to the very casual fans that don't watch every week.

I haven't been paying attention, did he do the talkshow rounds to promote his new movie, or has he saved the appearances for the leadup to WM?

I think what differentiates it from other similar non-jobs top guys have done is that it did get a few weeks of build, Rock showed ass for him on the promos in the buildup, and Hurricane was at least mixed in with the top guys for a little while afterward -- working HHH, Jericho and Flair at various points over the next two months and even doing a (failed) run-in to try to save Booker and Michaels from a HHH/Jericho/Flair attack. Hardly torch passing-type stuff, but it did benefit him a little. I do see the point, though. It wasn't a strong, clean job in the sense we normally think of one.

John can probably help out with this but I remember Helms doing a clean job to Triple H just a few weeks later.

 

This did happen, and it was a glorified squash. Rock was supposedly really pissed off by this, thinking it was done as a direct slap in the face to him from Hunter.

I just listed to the show and man Dave came off annoying as hell to me. He made some valid points but his constant ass kissing of the Rock is off the charts now. It's almost like he can do no wrong. That rant almost went into Alvarez level.

CM Punk has complained. Hard to tell when he's working and when he's not, though.

For what it's worth, Punk participated in the new Rock DVD, where all the interviews used with him were positive.

I think what differentiates it from other similar non-jobs top guys have done is that it did get a few weeks of build, Rock showed ass for him on the promos in the buildup, and Hurricane was at least mixed in with the top guys for a little while afterward -- working HHH, Jericho and Flair at various points over the next two months and even doing a (failed) run-in to try to save Booker and Michaels from a HHH/Jericho/Flair attack. Hardly torch passing-type stuff, but it did benefit him a little. I do see the point, though. It wasn't a strong, clean job in the sense we normally think of one.

John can probably help out with this but I remember Helms doing a clean job to Triple H just a few weeks later.

 

I believe it was the very next week.